Turbos on a Seven

[Mondo]

Loren,

When do you expect your motor to be done.. and driving?

[WestTexasS2K]

I'm hoping to be done on time to do the Smokie Mountain tour this fall. The motor should be done in another month or so. He will dyno the motor so we should have a good idea what it will do shortly.

[HOTTTCAR]

Loren are you putting it in the black beauty?

 

I will have my new car done and will b at Ambush also. This is going to b a fun time. Phil is bringing his Caterham, and John Meyers with his v8 Super Stalker. This is the most fun ....you can have in a car if you like driveing fast on amazing roads. War Woman road...is The Dragon with no cops. Jeez the Smokeys are best. Can hardly wait.

Gale

[Kitcat]

Skip & Terry:

 

And any others who have added big power to your Caterhams, vis turbo's or sc, had to do anything to the rest of the car? Like beef up the clutch, tranny, diff, rear suspension? Most of the discussion here has been philosophical as in: does too much power spoil the essence/purity of a na cat? My question is more practical and is limited to post '96 Caterhams, in the off chance I might end up with one again (soon).

[scannon]

The Miata engine in my Caterham is factory stock except for the turbo, injectors and ECU. Its last dyno was 301 RWHP and 268 lb ft of torque. The clutch is a factory clutch for the '04 & '05 Mazdaspeed Miata, a factory turbo so it is a little stronger than the original clutch. The transmission is a 5 speed Miata box. The differential is the Ford Sierra unit to which I added a Quaffe LSD. The suspension is factory Caterham with the Roadsport springs and shocks. I added adjustable coilover mounts to the Bilstein shocks that came on the car.

 

So far there have been no problems related to the extra HP and torque. I do check the torque on the diff mounts and the suspension at fairly frequent intervals. I also inspect for any cracking or bending of the differential mounts.

[WestTexasS2K]

I had to change to a stronger diff in our supercharged cars. Everything else has held up well.

 

Hey Gale I'm building a new car. I sold the black one a few months back. Post some pics of that new beast. I've been following your build but haven't seen any recent photos. I've been dying to see it. How's the LS7? I'm guessing just about right.

[westy turbo]

Thought i should post the dyno here so people can have a look at it,as the 2876 did a great job here,with an early spool that holds to the redline and a max out 450 at 1.5 bar,

No matter the boost, engine feels linear,like a sc.

 

Either t or sc,makes the car fun to drive,or a beast on demand.

 

 

 

http://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o217/tigraturbo/P3100120.jpg

[WestTexasS2K]

That is a big ole fat torque curve. You cant beat a turbo for that.

[MichaelD]

This site/group was created precisely for the expression of ideas like this without fear of being put put down for those ideas or for the type of Seven one chooses to drive.

 

I started this thread almost a year ago and this is the first time that I have read every post from the begining. I found it very informative and for the most part, the banter was quit civil.

 

We all love our little cars for various reasons. Maybe not because they are different but because we are. We build them and modify them to our own idea of what we want our Sevens to be. I dare say many drive their Seven very little while others drive them everywhere; about town, back roads, highways and yes, even for autocross, rally, hillclimb, time trial, track day and some even race. Some shod them with classic tires, bias ply tires and others with DOT radials. We paint them different colors or not and use metal, plastic and carbon. So why not have engines to suit every taste and budget. The engine is just one of items that make each of our cars unique and in many ways a reflection of our personalities.

 

When I first got my Seven I was told that "we can never have to much rubber or HP." twelve years later....I AGREE.

 

I have the rubber part solved. I have the twisties Solved. No problems with GT3s and Zo6s there. The only thing I don't have solved are the straights at VIR, Summit Point, NJMP and Watkins Glen. I don't like getting passed by those cars I worked so hard to pass in the curves.

 

A top end of 132 just won't cut it. If you want a brick to be a fast brick then you need more HP. Period!

 

Having read all of the posts, it seems that a turbo may be a more ecconomical solution than ordering a Cothsworth 295 Hp. I think 300 - 325 would be great but I should also upgrade the brakes. ;-) Anyone opinion on that?

 

Thanks to all for your comments.

Edited February 25, 2013 by MichaelD

[jlumba81]

Just curious if anyone put in a wet nitrious set up on their 7. Seems to be the cheapest way to get some more hp for a track oriented 7.

[westy turbo]

275-280 at 0.45 with an external wadtegate(just air intercooler and dual water injection) ,which is perfect number and its engine friendly too.Now with a gear/rpm based boost controler you can fine tune boost/gear so not wheel spin at all.Go with forged internals to have piece of mind no matter the pressure.am on 13ns wheels and on ap 4pot kit.Now from what ive noticed u guys usually run bigger rims so depends on your uprights,you can even go 4 or 6pot.personaly am satisfied with mine and mintex pads.

[WestTexasS2K]

You certainly want to looke at the brakes when you start adding power. Since everything is speeds up braking needs increase too. You will need to readjust your breaking points for sure. It may be as simple as adding a more aggressive pad or to larger rotors or calipers a combination of all 3. IMO you can never have to much brake.

[Kitcat]

Brakes? Probably depends on ultimate power, right? So if your approximately 200 hp Zetec gets boosted to 300 hp, it is making the same as some of the fancy Cosworths that do just fine with standard brakes.

 

If you go to 700 hp, maybe add hydraulics to the back of super high-tech (plywood) wing you run so it can be used as an air brake:).

 

For bang for the buck, turbo is the way to go vs, more hp from an naturally aspirated engine. These seem to come in around $20-$30K. And, if you blow up your turbo engine, it's a short trip to the junk yard for a replacemenmt. But when you blow that $30K engine, you have to write another $30K check (and/or find a new hobby).

[MichaelD]

Mike,

 

I simply push the top up via the rear push rod and it swivels on the front super hose clamps and acts as an air brake. Works fine with my puny 200 horses. ;-)

[Klasik-69]

I've been following this post with great interest. I'm in the same position, I want more power. Not for acceleration, not for the mid-range, but like MichaelD, for the top end. I hit 134 once at Roebling, and only because I came out of turn 9 like a crazed lunatic on a mission, and I had a tail wind, and I happen to be on the tail of a GT3 who was sweating bullets from my pursuit. Of course, half way down the straight, he became a smaller object in front of me. I hate that with a passion.

 

It was my understanding that with a standard chassis, there isn't enough room for a turbo or the intercooler, or the hose connection from the intercooler to the turbo or intake. There is some debate about there being enough room even with the wider chassis although Scannon and others have proven that to be wrong. I've looked at possibly using a centrifugal supercharger but the logistics are the same. I've read about using a roots type blower and doing without the intercooler, but again I don't know where that would go without just throwing away the hood (excuse me, the bonnet).

 

I got some quotes from Cosworth for HP duratecs. My engine is the older Zetec with good power at 183 rwhp and my car is the superlight R300. Cosworth's engine at 295 HP is running close to $20K, or if you look at it differently, the extra 75 or so HP is costing $253/hp. I don't think it's cost effective. I don't think I can get a bigger motor in this frame so adding displacement isn't going to work either.

 

Question: Is there a way to add a turbo to the Zetec in a standard chassis without it looking like a complete abortion ? If anyone has done it, can you post some pictures.

[Croc]

Mike - Let me throw out another idea instead of Cosworths or turbo zetecs. The new R600 is the 2L supercharged duratec at 275hp which is a neat package in its own right. However this is detuned from the SP300R which runs the same engine at 330hp....sounds more entertaining to my mind. The reason it is detuned for the R600 is that the Caterham 6spd gearbox cannot handle the extra strain. Not sure if the Sadev sequential can? Solve the gearbox problem and you have a package solution that should drop into an S3 chassis size.

 

Just a thought....

Edited February 26, 2013 by Croc

[scannon]

You might also explore using a '94 - '05 1,800 cc Miata engine and a turbo. The factory turbo engine from the Mazdaspeed Miata (MSM) has a turbo manifold that tucks the turbo right in tight to the block and this might fit in your narrow chassis. Flyin' Miata has a bunch of these manifolds and turbos taken off the MSM cars and sells them relatively cheap. You will get around 220 - 25 HP with this smaller turbo. You can get 300 HP rather easily with a stock engine plus a larger turbo and Hydra ECU.

 

I think this could be done for about $5 - 6k if you do the work yourself.

 

Buy a low mileage wrecked Miata, keep the engine and transmission and sell off the rest and you should have a free engine and transmission and some money left over towards the turbo and related items. This is what I did when building my Caterham.

 

Getting the charge air plumbing to fit past the radiator for a front mounted intercooler may be a problem in the narrower chassis but you could use an air/water intercooler mounted in the engine compartment with the water heat exchanger in front of the radiator which would mean much smaller water hoses going past the radiator.

 

http://www.britishv8.org/Other/SkipCannon/SkipCannon-BA.jpg

[Klasik-69]

Mike - Let me throw out another idea instead of Cosworths or turbo zetecs. The new R600 is the 2L supercharged duratec at 275hp which is a neat package in its own right. However this is detuned from the SP300R which runs the same engine at 330hp....sounds more entertaining to my mind. The reason it is detuned for the R600 is that the Caterham 6spd gearbox cannot handle the extra strain. Not sure if the Sadev sequential can? Solve the gearbox problem and you have a package solution that should drop into an S3 chassis size.

 

Just a thought....

 

Would the duratec with a supercharger fit in the narrow chassis I have ? Cranking this up to 330 hp would be fun. Not sure if it mates up to the T9 5 speed I now have but perhaps the T9 wouldn't handle the added hp. Good suggestion, thanks Mike.

 

Mike

[Klasik-69]

You might also explore using a '94 - '05 1,800 cc Miata engine and a turbo. The factory turbo engine from the Mazdaspeed Miata (MSM) has a turbo manifold that tucks the turbo right in tight to the block and this might fit in your narrow chassis. Flyin' Miata has a bunch of these manifolds and turbos taken off the MSM cars and sells them relatively cheap. You will get around 220 - 25 HP with this smaller turbo. You can get 300 HP rather easily with a stock engine plus a larger turbo and Hydra ECU.

 

I think this could be done for about $5 - 6k if you do the work yourself.

 

Buy a low mileage wrecked Miata, keep the engine and transmission and sell off the rest and you should have a free engine and transmission and some money left over towards the turbo and related items. This is what I did when building my Caterham.

 

Getting the charge air plumbing to fit past the radiator for a front mounted intercooler may be a problem in the narrower chassis but you could use an air/water intercooler mounted in the engine compartment with the water heat exchanger in front of the radiator which would mean much smaller water hoses going past the radiator.

 

http://www.britishv8.org/Other/SkipCannon/SkipCannon-BA.jpg

 

 

Skip, I have studied your car more than anyone elses for the very reason you have exactly the setup I would want. However, you have the wide chassis and I don't so it would be a shoe horn of a job. I have my spec Miata with a very solid 1.8L engine & solid 6 speed tranny. So engine availability is there, and even without it, I can buy a good used 1.8L for less than $1200, $1500 with the tranny. I thought about running the intercooler in front of the radiator, modifying the front nose of the car to accomodate the extra length, then running the hoses under the radiator. I was hoping to see someone else have attempted to do just that successfully. Like most people, I want more power.

 

Mike

[scannon]

Mike,

 

The MSM manifold will shave about 2+" off the driver side and using an engine from '95 thru '97 will shave a bit off the pass side as its intake manifold is smaller than the one on the '00 engine in my car.

 

I had plenty of room to mount the intercooler in front of the radiator. It is actually mounted to the radiator's side flanges close to where the bobbins mount the radiator to the chassis. The fan is mounted on the back of the radiator and just barely fits between the radiator and sway bar.

 

The tight fit is between the upper corners of the radiator and the nose cone where the plumbing goes through. Those 90* silicone hoses actually touch the underside of the nosecone. I sanded the nosecone smooth under there and there has been just a slight dulling of the shiny surface of the silicone. If/when they start to wear I will just replace them, I consider them a consumable item.

 

Using a air/water intercooler puts a much thinner heat exchanger in front of the radiator and smaller hoses to supply it. The intercooler can be mounted anywhere convenient for air flow between the compressor outlet and the throttle body.

 

I would not use the 6 speed transmission as it is wider than the 5 speed and may not fit in the tunnel. I had to remove the power plant frame (PPF) mounting boss and shave some excess material off the sides of the transmission to get it to fit. Besides that, a 5 speed is much better suited to a turbo engine than the very close ratio Miata 6 speed trans. Many Miata turbo owners have swapped out their 6 speeders for 5 speeds. This page near the bottom shows the stock, sacrificial tailshaft and the finished tailshaft which has a mount added that drops it right into the Caterham transmission mount.

 

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/636168/1992-mazda-miata-mx-5/page-12/

 

This picture shows the intercooler and plumbing under the nose cone. It was not actually mounted to the radiator at that time but that is where it ended up.

 

 

http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/1/2545/3361/6361680220_large.jpg