bball7754 Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 When I pulled my Crossflow for a rebuild, the inside of the bellhousing was an oily mess. The smell test didn't indicate transmission fluid, and I decided that it was engine oil (being apparently somewhat in denial), and cleaned it up. Prior to reinstalling everything, I did notice that the gearbox input shaft had quite a bit of play in it - it wiggled up and down more than I would have expected. But, remaining in denial, I put it all together and reinstalled. Started the engine up for the first time yesterday while it was still up on jack stands. Noticed that there was trans fluid around where the clutch arm comes through the bellhousing. Hmm... Went for the first test drive, and when I got back there was trans fluid dripping from the bottom of the gear box. Appears to be coming down from the spacer between the box and the bell housing. It's possible I overfilled the gearbox slightly, but would that really account for this? I have a new gasket for the CRB guide, but obviously didn't install it. I also understand that fluid can leak from around the selector shaft that comes through the bellhousing. Thoughts? Anyone know where I can have a T9 rebuilt - quickly? Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted May 27, 2013 Share Posted May 27, 2013 That does not sound good Steve. A couple of options: 1) Do it yourself? MichaelD had a good diagram of a T9 plus you are quite handy mechanically and Bsimon on here knows all about T9s from my reading about past threads. Maybe ping him directly with a PM to ask some questions. 2) Give George Alderman a call at Midatlantic Caterham. He can be quick turnaround on gearboxes or so I saw with MichaelD when he had his troubles. However, he is rebuilding another member's car for NJMP June after it impacted a wall so he may have his hands full for a short notice job. 3) Taylor Race Engineering in TX http://www.taylor-race.com I am sure there are others but this is off the top of my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted May 27, 2013 Author Share Posted May 27, 2013 Mike - Thanks for the lead on Midatlantic Caterham. I'll give them a call tomorrow, as well as Quantum Mechanics (http://www.quantumechanics.com/qm-htm/home1.htm). Tackling a rebuild of the T9 is more than I want to take on, or feel comfortable with. Plus, it would probably take me 6 months to do. I'm also actually considering just replacing the gearbox. BGH has a long first Road and Track box that doesn't seem totally unreasonable. More than a rebuild, but I'd get better ratios, etc. Shipping wouldn't be cheap, but probably worth a call/email to investigate. Not sure they have them built sitting around, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xcarguy Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Dick Brink pf Texas Motor Works may have a close ratio T9 ready to go: 817-461-7431 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelD Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Call John Esposito at Quantum Mechanics 203-463-8299 He just rebuilt two of my T-9s. Excellent work, reasonable price with a written guarantee and quick turn around. I shipped him three T-9s via FedEx Business for a total of $112.00 from Bethesda, Md. What happened to the third T-9 you are probable thinking? I sold it to another Caterham owner in Kansas. John is rebuilding it for him to his specs. Tell him I sent you. Oh, I forgot. John is the guy that built fifty T-9s for the US Birkins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelD Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 (edited) John Esposito Quantum Mechanics 315 Riggs St. Oxford, CT 06478 203-463-8299 Edited May 28, 2013 by MichaelD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 I dread reading threads on this site with the word "woes." Partly, because I have had my share of se7en woes. Partly, because you cant just drop it off at the dealer and pick it up the next day. Partly, because it seems to be a synonym for major $.The upside seems to be that every ''woes" adventure is an educational experience that tests a person's resourcefullness. And, when done you are wiser (tho poorer). I thot T9s were supposed to be pretty bullet proof? But many seem to be having issues. Anyhow, sorry to hear of this glitch Steve. The timing completey sucks since our NJMP event is looming. What abt just adding fluid as needed, and fixing after the event? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Steve, Barring a cracked case, there are 3 paths for gearbox oil to get into the bell housing. The CRB nosecone has a lip seal pressed into it from the bearing side. It may have perished. This one is nasty as it drops the oil directly into the spinning works of the clutch. There is a round gasket between the CRB nosecone and the front of the gearbox. This also may have started leaking. The last path is through the end of the selector shaft. Most bell housings have a blind pit that will contain this leak, however, the pit must be sealed to the front of the gearbox. A bell housing to gearbox gasket is not necessary, but you do need to apply a thin coat of Hylomar (or similar) around the selector shaft pit before assembly. If any of these paths are open, overfilling will exacerbate the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 Good news, I think, relatively speaking. Called BGH over in the UK this morning, and had a long conversation (30 minutes or so) with .... someone, maybe Brian? Anyway, my major concern was the vertical play in the input shaft. Per BGH, this is totally normal - it's how it's designed. He also said that, at least in the past, Caterham didn't put a gasket between the gearbox and bell housing. The selector shaft apparently acts, somewhat, as a pump, and with no gasket a leak can develop between the box and bell housing. It's also possible that the front oil seal is worn. So, my plan now is to pull everything back out, then replace the front oil seal, the CRB nosecone gasket, and replace/add the box to bell housing gasket. Prior to the engine rebuild I was not experiencing any clutch slippage, so don't believe the CRB nosecone lip seal is leaking. Wasn't aware of that seal, and haven't seen it listed, but maybe I should also replace that one? I think the box itself is fine. Anyway, my hope is that all of this will work, and I'll be at NJMP in 3+ weeks. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted May 28, 2013 Share Posted May 28, 2013 Good news! Sounds like you're getting it sorted. Prior to the engine rebuild I was not experiencing any clutch slippage, so don't believe the CRB nosecone lip seal is leaking. Wasn't aware of that seal, and haven't seen it listed, but maybe I should also replace that one? That actually is the "front oil seal" of which Brain speaks. There are no other seals in the front of the 'box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted May 28, 2013 Author Share Posted May 28, 2013 Gasket and seal kit ordered from Quantum Mechanics. I'll start on engine/trans removal tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelD Posted May 29, 2013 Share Posted May 29, 2013 Steve, Once you separate the bell housing from the trans with or without the gasket use a liberal amount of silicone sealant in and around the protrusion at the top center of the trans. This is the only place fluid will come from. I have run with a gasket and without a gasket but both with a liberal amount of silicone all the way around the lip of the trans and never had a leak. Go here for a 22 page T-9 Manual and assembly guide in a PDF: http://mjdtopsites.com/images/type_9-N_gearbox.pdf Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 (edited) The plot thickens. Thought I would try to confirm that the leak was at the front of the trans. Put the car on jack stands, wiped down the bottom of the trans, started the engine and ran it till it warmed up - including revving it. Looked under the car, and there was a nice 6-8" puddle - at the rear of the trans. The drip was on the left hand side of the trans at the rear corner, but definitely on the trans side and not on the extension housing. I'll have that gasket and seal in my kit, so guess I can replace them, although removing the extension seems more complicated than removing the bell housing. I've also read that excess fluid will come out the breather - but confess I didn't notice a breather while I had the trans out. By any chance is it at the right rear of the trans? Haven't pulled the tunnel cover yet to take a look. Edited May 31, 2013 by bball7754 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 before you tear the gearbox apart, tighten the six bolts that hold the tailshaft housing on (assuming they may be loose). Run the test again. if there is less oil on the ground, it's probably the gasket. If you are lucky, it's the tailshaft housing gasket, if you're unlucky, it's the gasket between the alloy bearing plate and the gearbox itself. That one is a bit more involved to replace as more stuff has to come apart... If testing still produces a great amount of oil, it could be a split bearing plate, busted main case, or busted tailshaft housing. Are you positive the oil is not migrating from the speedo connection or the rear seal that the propshaft yoke runs in? BTW... The standard breather is the round raised pimple in the top cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted May 30, 2013 Author Share Posted May 30, 2013 Bob - In case you can't tell, at this point I'm not positive of anything. Appreciate your input, and will pull the tunnel cover off tonight and see if I can more accurately find the source. Don't think it's the speedo connection, as it's on the other side of the trans and I didn't see (in my quick check this morning) any evidence of it traveling across the trans. Also don't think it's the rear seal the propshaft runs in, for pretty much the same reason - no evidence of fluid running down the bottom of the tailshaft housing. Should be fun to try and tighten those six bolts with the trans in the tunnel. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 I'm presenting all the "easy fix" diagnoses I can muster, hoping you won't have to perform major surgery. The speedo connection goes through both sides of the tailshaft housing. The offside has the seal and threaded connection for the cable. The nearside has a freezeplug-type bung pressed into the hole that the speedo driven gear slides into when assembling the gearbox. The "freezeplug" bung does pop out and spew oil on occasion. I drill and safety wire the bung into the case for reassurance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 First, let me correct the side that the drip is on. It's the left rear, not the right. Tightened up 4 of the 6 - couldn't figure out a way to get to the top two, including using u-joints and extensions. But, both the middle and bottom left were loose. Used 35 ft lbs, and the right bolts were fine, the left took maybe a quarter of a turn or so. But - it didn't help. It's leaking around the middle bolt between the alloy bearing plate and gearbox. I could wipe away the fluid, and then watch it reaccumulate on the gearbox. Suppose it's possible it's running down from around the top left bolt, but I couldn't get my hand up there to feel for fluid. So, definitely coming back out now. But after looking at the instructions to get the alloy bearing plate off, I think it's over my pay grade. Opinions on whether a good local transmission shop (assuming I can find one) would be able to replace the rear gaskets and seal? Shipping the gearbox and extension half way across the country seems like a more difficult solution approach than should be needed. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Steve, The bearing plate gasket may have perished as a result of the loose bolts. Any good transmission shop should be able to disassemble just enough to replace the gasket. I wouldn't let them dig much deeper unless they have experience with manual gearboxes. Give them a copy of the PDF type-9 manual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bball7754 Posted June 8, 2013 Author Share Posted June 8, 2013 Ok, good news update. Decided to use a local shop that has done lots of work on a friends Lotus 11. Before I dropped it off, pulled the bell housing off and found that there was no gasket between the gearbox and spacer. So, reason for front leak found. Left the gearbox at the shop on Monday, received the gasket/seal kit on Tuesday, and picked up a "resealed" gearbox this afternoon. So, install tomorrow, drive on Sunday. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bsimon Posted June 8, 2013 Share Posted June 8, 2013 :party: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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