One picture says it all

[Alaskossie]

Then and now:

 

The Porsche 911 -- 50 years apart.

 

The Lotus/Caterham 7 is 56 years old, and the same view of a '57 Lotus and a 2013 Caterham would not show nearly as wide (!) a divergence today, from the original compact, light, nimble concept for a sports car.

 

Somewhere along the way, the 911 lost the message.

[Croc]

Reminds me of the ass of one of my previous women...it spread out just as widdddde...

 

[TurboWood]

Porsche is better than most. Take a look at BMW, Merc, or Nissan (GTR)! The E30 or original Skylines were tiny compared to the modern equivalent.

[Sean]

The Caterham 7 has grown as well, but the difference is, they also still offer the original size (and without all of the other weight-adding stuff Porsches and others now have).

 

http://i321.photobucket.com/albums/nn384/BBL-Sean/forum_photos/7_sizecomparison_zpsde33182a.png

[twobone]

That's why I'm so happy to see the creation of the caterham 160. A return to lightness.

 

With porsche it is driven by profit motive. Large option loaded cars = massive profit margin. I met a guy who bragged about his $120,000 fully loaded boxter. Great car but stupid guy. Think how many great classic cars you could put in your garage for 120 large!?!

[Toyotus 7]

I agree completely about the 160...brilliant idea. As for Porsche, at least they had the good sense to backfill the small and nimble slot with the cayman S. I would love for manufacturers to think "small, noisy and fun" as opposed to "luxurious, big and dull", but they gotta give the people what they want, which is unfortunately the latter.

[Bruce K]

Then and now:

 

The Porsche 911 -- 50 years apart.

 

The Lotus/Caterham 7 is 56 years old, and the same view of a '57 Lotus and a 2013 Caterham would not show nearly as wide (!) a divergence today, from the original compact, light, nimble concept for a sports car.

 

Somewhere along the way, the 911 lost the message.

Can't totally agree with your conclusion. While the current 911 is undeniably larger, a significant percentage of the increased track is due to highly evolved and WIDE tires. The wide track and sticky modern rubber, together with suspension sophistications and PASM, have essentially eliminated the violent oversteer endemic to earlier Porsches. As power evolved, speed increased, and with it the need for aero. Aero requires a longer shape. The longer shape was additionally dictated by the wider track, again to improve handling (unless you think it would be fun to pilot a rear-engined turbo Legends car). Now, toss in safety solutions including federally-mandated crush zones, damage-resistant bumpers, multiple air bags, seat strength requirements, collapsible steering columns and the like, and you have a further need for more power and increased cubic volume to contain all of these "enhancements" without reducing passenger compartment size, luggage capacity or performance. Have Porsche engineers overcome safety issues to produce a more-capable vehicle? The answer is obvious: The modern Porsche will lap vintage units in any short race, while providing unprecedented driver protection and near-freedom from oversteer anxiety. Regarding expensive options, many or most are performance-oriented, including ceramic rotors, carbon fiber, improved exhaust, Recaro seats and the like. Yes, fancy leather and nav consoles are also offered, but these are meet-the-market items available in all extreme performance production sporters.

 

In short, Porsche, Corvette, Aston, Ferrari and others have all grown up in a similar environment, and have all become physically larger and incredibly more potent.

 

Where Porsche is smarter than most is the Boxster. The Boxster's mid-engine, two-place design enables more compact packaging. While Porsche, for obvious reasons, has never supported the effort, a properly engineer Boxster should out-perform a 911 in every regard. Thus, Porsche can provide all things to every driver, from modest light-weight performance to ultimate heavier-weight performance. Porsche has not "lost the message". They've built a car for every sporting taste, within modern federally-legislated limits. With the 911, they've retained and perfected an inherently inferior design, while offering the Boxster as a lighter-weight option. Ignore the badge for a moment - they're all still Porsches.

 

Regarding Caterhams, WCMs, Bruntons and the like, God bless 'em! I have owned two Caterhams (arguably three, since my last was so radically redesigned), plus my current WCM S2K. Because they are free from so many federal mandates, Sevens remain true to their initial design premise, and provide an unexcelled driving experience. They are the perfect cross between a motorcycle and a sports car. That's why I will always own one, until the day I can no longer drive.

[timax]

Is bigger , faster , more comfortable ,really better? Im guessing that being into the Lotus 7 design many on here would think not.

So think about your local Sunday morning windy road. Without breaking any speeding laws which one of the above Porsches would be more fun? If you really think the latest turbo supercar will actually be a more rewarding drive i would say your more a poser than driver. On track anything can be fun when its sorted and your on the limit but i bet the guy in the 1960's porsche driving at the limit is going to have a bigger grin than the Turbo driver who just lapped him without even trying. Its all about fun isnt it? Thats why i drive what i do.

[Alaskossie]

Bruce K --

 

You've hit the nail on the head. None of our Sevens or Seven variants would (or could) hew to Chapman's original "light, nimble" brief if they had to meet the evolving governmental safety mandates, and also cope with increased power and evolving tire technology.

 

So the basic reason we can still enjoy a Seven that is so close to the 56-year-old original (in everything but performance), is because the car has been able to legally slide under the increasingly-strict governmental safety radar, while still being a commercially viable product.

 

On this Thanksgiving, we should all be thankful for that!

[Bruce K]

Bruce K --

 

You've hit the nail on the head. None of our Sevens or Seven variants would (or could) hew to Chapman's original "light, nimble" brief if they had to meet the evolving governmental safety mandates, and also cope with increased power and evolving tire technology.

 

So the basic reason we can still enjoy a Seven that is so close to the 56-year-old original (in everything but performance), is because the car has been able to legally slide under the increasingly-strict governmental safety radar, while still being a commercially viable product.

 

On this Thanksgiving, we should all be thankful for that!

 

Amen, brother, and for all of our other blessings, as well!

[Bruce K]

Is bigger , faster , more comfortable ,really better? Im guessing that being into the Lotus 7 design many on here would think not.

So think about your local Sunday morning windy road. Without breaking any speeding laws which one of the above Porsches would be more fun? If you really think the latest turbo supercar will actually be a more rewarding drive i would say your more a poser than driver. On track anything can be fun when its sorted and your on the limit but i bet the guy in the 1960's porsche driving at the limit is going to have a bigger grin than the Turbo driver who just lapped him without even trying. Its all about fun isnt it? Thats why i drive what i do.

 

TIMAX, I challenge your presumption that the fellow in the old Porsche, while being lapped by the driver in the new Porsche, is wearing a silly grin precipitated by spectacular enjoyment. If he is even trying to catch the new Porsche, that expression is a death mask anticipating his demise at the next hot corner. In a Caterham, I once swapped ends, took a shortcut across the infield, and ended up on the line backwards on the far side of a hill! The wide white eyes of oncoming drivers, and the contrastingly narrowed aperture of my sphincter, are experiences I will never forget. In a vintage Porsche, pushed hard, these are familiar sensations. I do not argue that pushing an old Porsche can be a raw, visceral experience, but so is cutlass fighting, and I'm not fond of that, either. Bigger (because of legal requirements, tire width, aero and HP) is not always better, but it's not necessarily something you say no to just because the bar lights came up. You can still have fun with bigger, and I'm not taking this line any further. If you're like me (and therefore certainly no poser), you prefer the handling of Sevens. But a decent Seven of any vintage does not regularly substitute east for west just because of a little throttle lift in a hot apex (discounting my once-in-a-lifetime experience, which was exacerbated by tires wet from morning dew). Sevens are as direction-dependable as a modern Porsche, if not more so, and that's essential to their fun.

[TurboWood]

Bruce,

I think maybe timax's point was more general than specific. He did use Porsche as a specific example, but if we consider the argument to encompass all vintage vs. modern comparisons it makes more sense. Or maybe we need to separate road from track. On the street I fully agree with timax that the slower/lighter/etc. car would put a bigger smile on one's face. Can we call that the

 

To your point, I have never driven a vintage 911, but it seems there is global consent that the older 911's are death traps at 10/10's. So, surely it would be terrifying knowing you were moments from spinning onto oncoming traffic. However, that's something that could be solved with a lot less than all the extras present on the modern 911's.

 

Clearly regulation and business have had a significant (defining?) role in the path of the 911. Maybe we have only our own culture to blame.

 

Daniel

[timax]

:)Bruce ,

"TIMAX, I challenge your presumption that the fellow in the old Porsche, while being lapped by the driver in the new Porsche, is wearing a silly grin precipitated by spectacular enjoyment."

You need to go out to the next Historic meet in your home town and tell all those drivers of old cars not to enjoy themselves so much and that the modern equivalents of their steed could whip their ass.

"

If he is even trying to catch the new Porsche, that expression is a death mask anticipating his demise at the next hot corner."

 

Why would anyone expect to be able to or even try to keep up. Thats not the point.

 

"I do not argue that pushing an old Porsche can be a raw, visceral experience, but so is cutlass fighting, and I'm not fond of that, either. "

 

Its the raw experience i LOVE of my 7 and others of other great drivers cars like the Buggati Type 35, Ferrari 250 and 275 series , Cobras , Canam cars , nascar etc etc. Sounds like your getting soft!

 

"You can still have fun with bigger, and I'm not taking this line any further."

 

I will , sure i agree but these days its at much higher speeds and usually when on road, at speeds that we will be locked up for.

 

"If you're like me (and therefore certainly no poser), you prefer the handling of Sevens."

 

I am a poser. Click on my link below and you can see i enjoy a good looking car. But Im not a Porsche guy. Never have been. Although i do have to bow to the most winingest marque of all time. You dont get that because they are a crap car. Early 911's have a cult following like no other so i assume they must put a smile on someones face.

 

 

Bruce , car guys as we are come in all sizes. Some like to go straight , others like it tight and twisty and others like doing in the dirt. I would think ultimate laptime at the local track would be well down the list of most otherwise we would all be driving new skylines. Yikes!

 

Tim

:)

[Klasik-69]

timax and Bruce, you're both right. The new Porsche and the old Porsche are totally different cars, even though they're basically the same. Pleasure of driving is like beauty, it depends on the person and the experience. I like old stuff and realize it's shortcomings, and even though inferior to the new high tech stuff, enjoyment isn't reduced.

 

The new high tech cars like the current Porsche 911, or the new Corvette Sting Ray, are a blast and do everything so much better. My track buddy bought a new GT-R, and it rips. However, some of the new stuff like the GT-R are a little more disconnected, more like playing a video game. Yes, they go much faster and will out-corner anything from the past. Oh sure, launch control, ABS braking, active handling, traction control..........can you beat all the electronic nannies in today's cars ? No, but who's driving the car, you or the computer. Faster ....yes...........more fun..........maybe, maybe not.

[anthonyseven]

:lurk:

[Mondo]

Only two horsepower but the direct visceral feeling of control is exhilarating and something you can't get with all those new fangled gadgets... like steering wheels, gas peddles, foot brakes.

[Mondo]

On the other extreme

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-jKOjkU9qE/