Interesting chat with VW HQ

[bigdog]

An update about trailers and tow vehicles. I have been looking for an economical tow vehicle for my seven. Have been looking at the Passat TDI. According to VW Europe the tow capacity is 1600Kgs. In America the same Passat from the same Mexican factory is rated at 450Kgs. I called VW USA HQ on Friday and asked are the Eu and US spec the same cars with regards to how the body assembly is built. They said yes. I then asked why the disparity in the tow ratings. The answer I got was very honest & candid. The VW rep said that because of the tax structure for autos & the size of the roads in Europe. Most folks do not buy SUV's there. I then asked if the US spec Passat CAN tow but VW just doesn't allow it. Yes they said as it would interfere with sales of the very popular SUV's. And if one did tow with a new Passat the warranty would be null and void. Finally an honest answer & it was what I suspected all along. MARKETING to the not very smart size matters Americans.

 

I also called BMW as the 328 diesel wagon in Germany can pull 1600Kgs. BMW USA told me that even though the EU & US cars are built the same. The reason that BMW will not allow towing with the US model is because the federal DOT said it's illegal. What a crock of s**t.

 

In the end, The wife and I will be ordering a M-B GLK 250 Bluetec diesel. Kudos to VW for at least being honest.

[Klasik-69]

I don't know how the European and USA models differ in specs but here in the US, the VW brand has had some pretty poor results and their sales reflect it. While most other car manufacturers have posted significant gains, VW has had a drop in sales. Electrical issues are the number one problem with almost all models, and many here in Florida have had the lemon law invoked with dealers buying back their cars. German cars fare well here as evidenced by BMW, Mercedes, Audi and Porsche sales gains. The ironic thing is Audi and Porsche are under the VW umbrella and yet don't share the same problems. The Toureg SUV is very expensive and continues to get very poor revues while the similar Porsche Cayenne is highly acclaimed and extremely popular.

 

Don't forget that towing is a tow fold issue. 1. pulling 2. stopping If you can pull it but can't stop it safely, what is the point of having it ?

 

I use to pull my car trailer with an F-250 with twin turbo diesel engine. It could pull a house off it's foundation and was clearly more engine than I needed. I went down to an F-150 not so much for economy but rather for comfort in ride and have not lost much in pulling power although I did give up some fuel economy vs. the diesel. However, in this country, diesel is priced higher than high test gasoline so it's a wash. Smaller diesels are the way to go since I don't think we need 390 hp and 625 lb/ft of torque to pull a car trailer. Smaller diesels like the ones in the VW are very good at pulling with a good bit of torque but if the car weighs 3000 lbs and you're pulling a 3000 lb trailer, how good are the brakes going to be if you don't have electric brakes on that trailer ? The brakes on that car were designed to stop at most 4000 lbs combined. They don't make cars to stop double their weight, nobody does.

 

I think you're making the right move to get into the Mercedes. You will be safer with a heavier vehicle and you won't be having the electrical issues VW has been experiencing. My son-in-law and my secretary both had VW cars (Jetta and Beetle) and both had to get rid of them due to non-stop electrical issues. Maybe they're better in Germany.

[Paul Hill]

You may want to check with your own state, region, province but here in Ontario any trailer with a loaded weight capacity of over 2000 lb MUST have an automatic brake system, as well as a breakaway system. From my own experience I know that more and more flat towed cars and car dollies like you often see behind motorhomes require automatic braking systems as well.

While any of the above scenarios will certainly add to the price and comlexity it is tough to argue with their merit.

[Klasik-69]

You are absolutely right. Again the concern is not with the ability to pull but the ability to stop safely. Another issue is the leveraged weight of the two vehicle vs the trailer when dealing with cross winds when the towed trailer can flip to towing vehicle, a common sight on our highways when a small tow vehicle is pulling a large bulky trailer that may not weigh all that much, and all we see is debris scattered all over the highway. Tower a Beware.

[TurboWood]

Surely they must stop in Europe too?

[bigdog]

The thing is Klasik, VW said to me directly that both the German and US model Jetta's are made in the Mexico plant & are structurally the same. What irks me is the fact that all these companies brag about how Green they are trying to be. Yet artificially axe their cars tow rating to PREVENT sales of an economic tow car specifically to push one into way more car than one needs. Which is maddening. I could understand if the EU Jetta also had the same 1000Lb tow rating as the US model. It's the same with virtually every manufacturer, They all deflate the towing capabilities of their cars in order to bolster the sales of oversized & overpriced SUV's. I'll be into the M-B for about 10K more (with the 5k military discount from M-B) than the Jetta & get 10MPG less. Just what the wife & I needed just as we retire, a higher payment & fuel & insurance bills. At least M-B stepped up to the plate and said you can have an SUV that can tow & get far greater economy than all other tow capable SUV's in the US market.

 

Of course part of the problem the manufacturers have is us in the good ole USA is the following. I was reading a review on the GLK Bluetec diesel. The folks doing the test liked it. And guess what the biggest issue that most of the posters in the comments section had. IT'S NOT FAST was the over whelming whine from the Americans.

 

I think the problem with the scenario you cited is that it's usually the driver going to fast for conditions that causes problems. And is not restricted to small tow vehicles. Having lived in South Dakota for a very long time. I have seen the invincible rednecks in their cummins pickups with trailer attached doing 80MPH in 40-50MPH crosswinds. A trailer can blow over just as easily behind a big truck as a small one. I know, I almost had it happen while driving my Kenworth W900 pulling an empty FedEx trailer. I saw about 2-3Ft of daylight under the trailer tire. Yikes!!

Edited February 3, 2014 by bigdog

[Kitcat]

My 2011 Touareg diesel has 65,000 miles, many of them towing my enclosed 4,000 trailer/7 combo. I have had zero electrical problems/zero mechanical problems.

 

My favorite towing moment was when a guy in a big Dodge Ram blew by me on a downhill interstate hauling his enclosed trailer, and I blew buy him going up the steep hill that followed.

 

This SUV gets 33-37 mpg at 65 mph, 30-32 mpg at 70 mph. It is rated to tow 7700lbs. Tows smoothly, never an issue with the trailer wagging the dog. Towing MPG is not impressive, 12-14 mpg depending on speed/wind direction. With a 26 gallon tank, long distance hauling is easy.

 

It is quiet and comfortable inside. Passengers in rear seat are happy w/reclining seats, tons of head, leg room.

 

It is abt the same length as a Honda Accord, so is easy to drive /park.

 

Gripes: well, the name is pretty stupid and is hard to spell.

 

I have read every comparo the car mags have done on it and except for one, it is typically towards the top and one rated it at the top. Consumer Reports likes it as well tho agrees it has reliabilty issues. It is a "badge-enginered" Cayenne or Audi Q7 for $10K-30K less.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Kitcat

[bigdog]

This is certainly not meant as an insult Kitcat.

 

While I do very much appreciate the info on your good ownership experience with your VW. It must be stated that I'm a retired enlisted Air force guy. Not daddy War-bucks. I hope you can see & understand why I'm a bit frustrated with my options in the USA. We have gone from a $26,000 Jetta TDI that is able and authorized to pull the seven if I was to stay in Europe. To a Touareg that has a $51,000 Base price, All the way up to the mid to upper 60's optioned out that gets 12-14MPG towing. Half what the Jetta gets.

 

In the end the wife and I will be ordering a M-B GLK 250 Bluetec 4matic for $36,500 with the military discounts and a few options, No sales tax, And free shipping from Germany to the east coast when we return stateside in 2015.

[Z3 Stalker]

Kitcat,

Does your Touarag have the V6 or V10?

I know in Australia Audi put a V12 diesel in the Q7.

[turboeric]

Don't forget that towing is a tow fold issue. 1. pulling 2. stopping If you can pull it but can't stop it safely, what is the point of having it ?

The point is trailer brakes with a quality proportional controller. Properly set up, the trailer adds no braking load to the tow vehicle. My combination of a 2005 Subaru Impreza RS plus 13 ft, 950 lb dry trailer with brakes and a proportional controller brakes beautifully. Experimentally on a flat, deserted bit of country road, I did some braking with the trailer brakes turned down to zero and boy did the trailer push me. With the brakes properly set up, no push - in fact the braking feels normal.

 

Trailer brakes can be added to virtually any trailer, and a proportional controller is only around $100.

 

I suspect one problem with North American tow ratings is that small tow vehicles are more susceptible to owner stupidity. Too much tongue weight, trailer loaded up with 2 tons of gear, no brakes and 80 mph speeds in cross winds adds up to disaster. Doing this safely depends on the intelligent participation of the driver, which manufacturers generally have to assume will be lacking. I trust my engineering and driving skills - I'm not sure how far I'd want to generalize that 'though.

[bball7754]

When I was trying to find a tow vehicle (which also needed to be my wife's daily driver, so F150, etc., was not an option), I found that the tow ratings in the US were consistently lower than the European ratings.

 

I ended up with a Volvo XC60 with, as I remember, a 3500 lb tow limit. Believe in Europe it's 5000.

 

Reading similar discussions on various forums, the litigious nature of the US (sue over everything/anything) was often viewed as one of the primary reasons.

 

FWIW, I've had no problems towing with the Volvo.

 

Steve

[Kitcat]

Z3 Stalker: I have the turbo diesel 6, 3.0 liter. Not the V10 on the prior version. The newer Touareg weighs abt 500 lbs less than the prior model as well. I think mine weighs around 4600 lbs and w/me, tires, tools etc seems to have enough heft to stand up to the loaded trailer with out any problems. I have over 10K of towing miles.

 

I also recently bought, but haven't installed, a brake controller for the trailer. I have not had any stopping issues but that is more a result of defensive and cautious driving. One early panic stopped showed it stops, and ABS works fine, but the distance is definitely longer.

[FE07]

I have a 2010 Touraeg Tdi. Use it to tow an enclosed trailer with race car wheels, spares and tools. Probably 4600 lbs. Tows great and fine as a daily driver. 12-13 mpg towing. 22 with mixed city/hwy driving. No electrical issues although did have problems with EGR coolers that are an apparently known problem with that engine. Fixed under warranty although in shop an awful long time to diagnose and obtain parts.

 

Kit Kat- if your towing 4000 lbs you really ought to install that brake controller. You're gonna wear your brakes out much faster on the Touraeg. Have only had to slam on the brakes once while towing but I wouldn't want to do it without using the trailer brakes. Keeps both the SUV and trailer much better controlled.

If your car came with the trailer package its probably already pre-wired for the controller.

 

Jim

[Z3 Stalker]

Thanks Kitcat,

I am considering the Touarag and the Q7 with TDI for my next vehicle, I had a Duramax GMC truck, loved that motor, power to the people LOL!!!

[Paul Hill]

Having been in the mobile home and rv business most of my life (61 now) I have a "bit" of towing experience. Only a fool tows without brakes. And even then, periodic checks and maintenance of both the trailer and tow vehicle's brakes is an absolute must! Let me give you a great example...

 

For 10+yrs we used a Ford E350 former small wheelchair bus converted to a motorhome to tow our 32' 10,000 lb (loaded) trailer full of my 2 sons' shifter kart equipment. We put over 300,000 miles on the 2 rigs and brakes were a constant maintenance item. But even as careful as we were we got caught out occasionally, the rear brakes on the Ford being less than maintenance free. On the last leg home from a cross Canada trip from Vancouver I noticed the brakes being noticeably less than they had been. On checking at home there was almost nothing left inside the rear drums. Shoes, adjusters, springs, all ground up and gone. And they were new and perfectly adjusted before we left on that 8000 mile trip, just so we would not have any trouble on the road. Good thing it didn't happen.in the rockies!

The point here is that the brakes on both trailer axles were doing the bulk of the braking. The gradual deterioration of the truck brakes was almost unnoticeable.

 

Moral of the story: maintenance maintenance maintenance.........

[slomove]

I have been towing my enclosed 7s trailer (about 3000 lbs) for many years now with a Hyundai Santa Fe. Originally the 2.7 V6, now the newer 3.8l V6. We bought that model mainly because it was about the cheapest car on the market with 3500 lbs tow rating. About the size of the Touareg and with 270 hp ample power. We got the 2012 model last year for $24k shortly before launch of the 2013 model. Never had trouble with our old Santa Fe in 8 years and did not need to invoke the 100k mile warranty.

 

I would also not tow without brakes. The rig is normally very stable but when running at speeds of 60 or above on a serious down hill it can start fishtailing. A quick push on the brake controller override will stop that immediately (and remind me of slowing down).

[Klasik-69]

The thing is Klasik, VW said to me directly that both the German and US model Jetta's are made in the Mexico plant & are structurally the same. What irks me is the fact that all these companies brag about how Green they are trying to be. Yet artificially axe their cars tow rating to PREVENT sales of an economic tow car specifically to push one into way more car than one needs. Which is maddening. I could understand if the EU Jetta also had the same 1000Lb tow rating as the US model. It's the same with virtually every manufacturer, They all deflate the towing capabilities of their cars in order to bolster the sales of oversized & overpriced SUV's. I'll be into the M-B for about 10K more (with the 5k military discount from M-B) than the Jetta & get 10MPG less. Just what the wife & I needed just as we retire, a higher payment & fuel & insurance bills. At least M-B stepped up to the plate and said you can have an SUV that can tow & get far greater economy than all other tow capable SUV's in the US market.

 

Of course part of the problem the manufacturers have is us in the good ole USA is the following. I was reading a review on the GLK Bluetec diesel. The folks doing the test liked it. And guess what the biggest issue that most of the posters in the comments section had. IT'S NOT FAST was the over whelming whine from the Americans.

 

I think the problem with the scenario you cited is that it's usually the driver going to fast for conditions that causes problems. And is not restricted to small tow vehicles. Having lived in South Dakota for a very long time. I have seen the invincible rednecks in their cummins pickups with trailer attached doing 80MPH in 40-50MPH crosswinds. A trailer can blow over just as easily behind a big truck as a small one. I know, I almost had it happen while driving my Kenworth W900 pulling an empty FedEx trailer. I saw about 2-3Ft of daylight under the trailer tire. Yikes!!

 

You forgot one really big difference between here and Germany............LAWYERS. We have them lurking everywhere just looking for an opportunity to file a wrongful injury or death law suit. Car manufacturers are covering their behinds by recommending larger vehicles with bigger engines, brakes, etc to prevent the lawyers from suing them into oblivion. Yes, you're right about the excessive power in our current pickups with each manufacturer trying to outdo the other with a constant climb in power. I always thought that a pickup with a diesel like the one in the Isuzu NPR, a 4 cylinder 190 hp & 450 lbft of torque was more than sufficient. Redneck mentality prevents that from getting done. GM was going to market a V6 diesel in the 1/2 ton pickup with reverse flow (exhaust inside the V) but somehow that died too. So we're stuck with too much power and too much fuel consumption.

 

On the flip side, I don't think a Jetta is an adequate tow vehicle. Your bluetec M-B diesel is a much better and SAFER vehicle. Yes, you'll burn more fuel but you may just live a little longer this way.

[RGTorque]

time to put in my opinion? i have a vw tdi specific shop here in pa and can say that most of the issues i see coming in are from a defective driving unit that is located right in front of the steering wheel. VW group has seen serious increases in sales because of increases in quality since 2006 (especially because the jetta series 5). yes these numbers fluctuate but they are a POSITIVE trend.

 

the porsche, audi, and vw suv are generally the same vehicle with extra "fixens" so saying one has a higher failure rather than the other is just wrong. if you watched the turn on the tv you will see vw's most recent ad stating that they have more vehicles on the road over 100k than any other auto maker. you really dont hear much complaints from the luxury brand because people frankly do not drive them to the miles that standard brands do. electrical problems be damned, i have MANY customers that come for regular service with 200k+ and a handful with 400+ and 2 with over 550 on ORIGINAL ENGINE! this is why vw in tied with gm as the top selling auto manufacturer of all time, only a SLIGHT bit off from number one toyota.

 

in regards to the touareg in general, ive had my v10 for almost 5 years now and ive towed a 20 foot trailer as a vendor to auto shows for that entire time. the majority of its life has been towing. my mother, until recently, has a v10 touareg since new in 06 and it was flawless as was mine. it was replaced with a 2014 audi a6 diesel. she was a completely different driver than me so you can see the variety in usage. efficiency wise i can hit 25mpg highway and 18mpg city if im not flogging it around, generally i see 22/16. towing with my dolly loaded i hit 20mpg no problem.

 

improperly maintained cars always fail. poorly trained mechanics lead customers to believe that their cars are junk. read between the lines.

 

pardon grammar/spelling/rant.

[Kitcat]

ER:

Are you implying that the "defective driving unit" is in approximately the same location as the driver:)?

 

Your V10 Touareg is a much stouter vehicle than my V6 vehicle, no? It has substantial skid plates, an air suspension, etc, right? In the real world, it is likely able to tow more than mine can, regardless of tow rating. And it has serious off-road capacity, also lacking in mine.

 

OTOH, my highway mileage is superior, at least when I am not towing.

[RGTorque]

sometimes i cannot even call the bags of flesh that attempt to operate the vehicle a "driver". yes the v10s generally came loaded with all those goodies and then some you realy dont need all the power though. i would not mind having a t2 touareg with the v6. im not a fan of the t3 because the neutered it significantly (diff awd system, no air suspension, locking diffs, etc).