Steering "feel"

[slngsht]

This post is prompted by a question Bob asked me this weekend about steering feel and feedback.

 

My only other sports car is a C5, which according to magazines doesn't give you very much feedback or feel. I used to have a Prelude Si, but since it's FWD, I don't think that's the king of steering feedback either. I have test driven a 3 series the "king" of steering feel according to many rags, although not very hard... just a few corners at speed. I have to be honest - I didn't have that AHA moment where I was like "So, THAT's what it's supposed to feel like".

 

Frankn7 seems to steer fine (once I fixed the play issue). She has alot of raw mechanical grip. When you turn the wheel, the car turns... turn more, the car turns more. I have yet to feel either the front or the rear step out in a turn (unless go-pedal was involved), so perhaps i'm not pushing it hard enough.

 

So, I guess I'm not getting the feedback or feel that everyone talks about, or maybe I'm getting it and don't know it.

 

Enough rambling.

 

 

 

[JohnCh]

Good steering feel is a wonderful thing, but I also find it is a personal thing. I’ve heard people, including automotive journalists, rave about the steering feel of specific cars, but after driving those same vehicles I’ve been left unimpressed. It’s not that those folks are wrong and I am right (well maybe it is ), but rather we may each value different qualities when turning the wheel. For me brilliant steering provides great feel of the road surface. You feel what the front tires are experiencing as it happens. It also has good weight (again, very subjective on what is too heavy or too light) and a linearity that is a little tough to describe. You can feel the steering weight up as the cornering forces build, but the progression is very smooth, very linear, and very mechanical. The two best steering vehicles I have driven are a Caterham fitted with the Freestyle inboard front suspension and an ’87 Porsche 911 with a modified front suspension. Both were simply brilliant and pushed all my buttons.

 

My Westfield has good, but not great steering. It is something that I am working on and hope to improve over the winter. I also have a Porsche 993 and 944 turbo. For me, they both have great steering with the nod going to the 993. Another thing that I have found is that tires can really effect steering feel. When I bought my 993, the steering was good, but a notch below the 944 turbo. Upgrading the tires from Pirelli P-Zero Nero M&S to Bridgestone RE-050A made a huge difference. BTW the 911 and Caterham I mentioned earlier both ran R-compound tires which tend to have better road feel.

 

One of the major magazines (Car & Driver?) did an article about steering a couple of years ago that tried to answer the question “Why do some cars have great steering feel?” I’ll dig through my stack of magazines later this week to see if I can find it.

 

-John

 

[Al N.]

I think John raises good points...especially that it's a matter of personal preference.

 

With most modern cars, you get overboosted power steering and not much feedback...and too much play when centered and not geared as well as I'd like (have to turn the wheel to much to get the desired amount of turn-in). This is all probably in an effort to keep cars more insulated/isolated and therefore feel "luxurious".

 

FWIW, I find every other car I've driven besides my Caterham to have relatively dead steering feel. With the Cat, you twitch, it steers.

[drew...]

One of my big reasons for the Se7en was I had never driven anything street legal with the same feel. The closest to the 7 I have had the opportunity to drive were D Mod AutoX (rotary powered Sardini), Skip Barber FF's and an SCCA EP MGB (former national champ). One thing that I find totally different is the seat of the pants feel, basically sitting on the rear-end provides a totally different feeling as the car begins to oversteer.

[stevet]

Agree with Al, it's kinda difficult to be impressed by the steering feel of most tin tops after you've had a seven for a while. I've heard from a number of folks that the most impressive steering 'feel' they have come across is on the Elise/Exige. I haven't driven one so don't know.

 

However, I'm looking for a new car right now so have been test driving a few different marques in the so-called 'small luxury' segment. So far, the BMW 328 has impressed me most - both at low and high speeds (it loads up nicely as you go quicker). The Merc C class was very good, though I didn't feel quite as involved as with the Beemer. The Audi A3/A4 was fine at speed, but had a little too much play at low speeds for my liking. The Subaru Legacy GT was similar to the Merc. Still waiting to try the Lexus 250/350 and Acura TL (any feedback on these appreciated as I have to go to Richmond to test drive them...)

 

 

 

 

[Al N.]

Steve-My business partner has the new TL-S and while it has plenty of power, i always felt it was in the wrong gear. It has the paddles for shifting in the "sport mode", but I found the response to be slow compared to my old A4 after I put the "tip chip" in to speed shifts.

 

I like the BMWs, but don't love the rear wheel drive aspect and find their 4wd just a bit too rich for the Navarro household. Will probably get the A3 when the TT is up. Similarly dead steering but the DSG is very entertaining compared to auto-manuals. -Al

[stevet]

Thanks Al, I'm not keen on that much power through the fronts wheels, so the TL is well down my list. Will probably drive the Beemer and Audi's again this week.

 

 

[Boxologist]

after a 7 all views are jaundiced. joy of havng no power steering and no weight to make it an issue. power steering does eliminate most of the feel. also consider hoe much front castor u can have , that greatly influences how turn in is. Also, we have minimal body roll with the low center of gravity of a 7. even u mada!

[JBH]

When you think about it, the size of the steering wheel says a lot about the responsiveness of a car.

 

The steering on my Caterham is on par with vintage formula cars and sports racers. Until you drive one of these cars it is hard to judge what constitutes a good steering. For many years I thought the Porsche was the benchmark (and I have owned several BMWs, an Audi S4, Alfas, and Fiats) - then I drove a formula car and that reset the benchmark.

 

 

 

[scannon]

 

My Westfield has good, but not great steering.

I drove the FM Westfield in August and I liked the steering even better than my Caterham. It was smooth, low effort (but not too low) and seemed to talk to me better than the Caterham. I didn't get to try it on the track so I can't say for sure it is better all around.

 

I put a larger steering wheel on my Caterham to help prevent flareups of the tendonitis in both of my elbows. Having the easier steering of the Westie would be a plus for me. Wish I knew whether it was alignment or steering rack that made the difference.

 

SteveT: See if you can find a Legacy GT with some good aftermarket tires on it to test. I have an '05 GT wagon and I put Pirelli P-Zero Nero tires on it shortly after buying it as the factory tires were CRAP. The Pirellis vasty improved the feel, turn in and ride.

[Donnie]

Steve

You really should drive the Infifiti G35. We just bought an Acura TL (wife's choice) but I much preferred the Infifiti. Superior ride and handling. Plus, I also feel that a car with this much power should drive the rear wheels. Neither one of us cared for the Lexus. Too soft. Good luck. Don

[BobDrye]

Mazda:

My seven has 500 lbs on the 215/40/17 AVS front tires @ 18 psi. The camber is set @ -2 deg and 2.5 deg of caster. It could be that I just don't have enough weight on the tires, and enough caster to feel much. Last weekend I never felt the front tires do anything that I didn't want them to do. I just didn't get much feedback from the tires. I raced go-karts from 13-30, was a sprint car mechanic for 3 years, raced pro four for 3 years, and did a little boat racing.

 

 

I looked at the rear brakes last night and found the bolt that was just a 2 mm to long that was locking up my rear tire. :ack:

[slngsht]

Mazda:

My seven has 500 lbs on the 215/40/17 AVS front tires @ 18 psi. The camber is set @ -2 deg and 2.5 deg of caster. It could be that I just don't have enough weight on the tires, and enough caster to feel much. Last weekend I never felt the front tires do anything that I didn't want them to do. I just didn't get much feedback from the tires. I raced go-karts from 13-30, was a sprint car mechanic for 3 years, raced pro four for 3 years, and did a little boat racing.

 

 

I looked at the rear brakes last night and found the bolt that was just a 2 mm to long that was locking up my rear tire. :ack:

 

spinaroooo?

[stevet]

Thanks for the advice guys, if I get the Scooby I'll spec different tires (I was going for a wheel upgrade anyway). I do like the infinity, but also need 4X4 as can't get up to my house in snow without it.

[Al N.]

inifiti g35X...my biz partners old car. he actually misses it vs. the TL-S.

[Donnie]

FYI Steve, The Infiniti G35X is AWD.:cheers:

[JohnCh]

I drove the FM Westfield in August and I liked the steering even better than my Caterham. It was smooth, low effort (but not too low) and seemed to talk to me better than the Caterham. I didn't get to try it on the track so I can't say for sure it is better all around.

 

The FM Westfield uses Miata uprights which have better geometry than the Cortina units on my car. There is an upright upgrade available through Westfield and the aftermarket that improves the Ackerman geometry, and also some upgrades through the aftermarket that address castor. I will probably do the former upgrade over the winter, but the castor upgrade is too much for my pocketbook. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think my Westfield has poor steering, but I think my other cars fare a little better overall in the feel department. Where the Westfield wins out is in steering quickness and turn in speed.

 

-John

 

[Boxologist]

for a subaru,

Summer: bridgestone potenza 050a pole position, a friend just got them in 225 45 17, a like them a great deal better thean the s03 they replaced. a little softer sidewall, and a whole lot quieter. I will get them when i need to replace my falken Ziexs on my wagon for my summer tyres. i also have the 040 on loan to another friend, he is not fond of them, probably because they are a 215 when he is used to a 235. they are pretty good, but now there is better. the toyo proxes 4 are getting good reviews. the continental sport contact has been an excellent budget choice for the last 2-3 years. teh michelin/bf goodrich KDW2 is also really good.

 

the stock bridgerocks will be good for a an easy winter if u don't driver aggressively in the snow. otherwise i use the Nokians. The WR willbe better suited to a Va winter, the RSi is a more inclement weather designed tread. lots a siping. makes me want to find some snow thinking about it. mmmmm mmmmm:party:

[stevet]

Donnie :cheers:

[DeanG]

My 2 cents. The best cars I have driven for steering feel, that is how wiggling the wheel feels vs how the car responds including the feedback are the Elise followed by the early Elan. The Elise wins out because it is linear, percise, accurate, has a nice ration and gives good feedback. The high level of grip and the stability of the car also make the stearing feel good. I gather that when ride and handling engineers describe steering feel they do not include grip or stability as factors. Other cars that I have driven that might get mentioned for great fealing steering that I don't believe deserve the lable are the Lotus M100, late 80's 911's, early 90's Corvette's, new BMW 3, 5, 6, 7 series and Z4's. As an aside, the Z4 is a huge disappointment being ugly & slow as well as having poor feel and intrusive driver "aids". The best inexpensive car for steering feel that I have driven is the Ford Focus which is rumored to have been tweeked by Lotus. Unfortunately I have not been able to drive a 7 although if my engine ever gets back togeather I plan on fixing that omission.