FIRST-TIME 7 PURCHASE ADVICE WANTED

[Avery Waterman]

[My bad: Reflecting my Newbie status, this essentially is a reposting as a new topic of what I initially posted as a reply on the 1993 Caterham for sale topic.]

 

As a belated 50th birthday present to myself (6'0" 180 pounds), I am looking to buy my first 7. I seek a somewhat regular street driver that is the "best bang for the buck" in the $20,000-$30,000 range, with basic reliability and resaleability being more important than raw power and performance. I am considering the following, but invite any other suggestions:

 

1. 1993 Caterham Super 7 (2,500 miles with 1.7 Cosworth BDR and de dion) [guessing $25,000-$30,000]

 

2. 2007 Westfield SEi (1,300+ miles and 1992 103,000-miles Mazda 1.6 DOHC, et al.) $21,900

 

3. 2004 Birkin S3 (new with 0 miles and rebuilt low-mile 200HP Zetec) $29,900

 

4. 2003 Superformance S1 (4,500 miles and with "stock" 148HP Zetec) $25,400

 

5. 2001 Superformance S1 (new with 0 miles and 175HP Zetec) $29,995

 

6. Other [you spec it out]

 

I am not sure what to think about the Westfield's old high-mlieage Mazda donor parts, its fiberglas skin, and it not clearing $19,100 on a couple eBay auctions. I do not know how much to make of the Superformance S1 no longer being made vis-avis replacements and resalability. Caterham is classic, though the need for replacements and other work for relative age and non-use is unclear. Birkin seems to approximate Caterham most closely and to be sufficiently stable despite dealer turnover. The Robin Hood on eBay concerns me mainly for lack of tubular chassis and secondarily for its locost finish. I do not know what else might fit my bill that is available now or shortly.

 

Your various viewpoints from technical, practical and all other standpoints are appreciated greatly. Thank you very much in advance for helping get me started.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[manik]

Hi Avery,

 

Although my comments may be a bit biased, I'll try to confine myself to the Westfield.

 

The mileage on the Miata donor parts are not an issue. Everything was rebuilt, and the engine was essentially rebuilt, save new rings and bearings. The general consensus is that a good running, well maintained Miata engine is almost better off being left alone.

 

The fiberglass parts on the Westfield are of two benefits - they are pre-colored in the gel coat so there is no painting needed, and if you ever do need to repair them, it is easier and less expensive than a new aluminum part.

 

The results on eBay are typical, I'm afraid. There are no real buyers on eBay, particularly for these types of cars. I do invite you to try out the Westfield at VIR. I think you will find it immensely enjoyable.

 

 

tm

[scannon]

I agree with manik on the viability of used Miata engines. 200,000 miles before overhaul is not uncommon if well maintained. The Miata transmission is one of the sweetest 5 speeds out there, it even has synchromesh on reverse.

 

Another upside is that there is a huge aftermarket of performance items for the Miata engine should you find yourself looking for more HP.

 

I might be a bit biased as I have a Caterham SV with a turbo Miata engine and transmission.

 

Skip

[JohnCh]

The folks at Flyin' Miata have a forum devoted to the Westfield Miata that might be worth a look if you haven't already been there. Unfortunately we don't see a lot of the Westfield Miata folks posting here, so you may have to go to them to get their opinion on the car, and find out why they chose to go in that direction rather than a different brand.

 

Mazda, sorry for linking away to another forum! Let me know if I have to pay some sort of fine...

 

-John

[scannon]

I've driven the FM Westie (1.6 Miata motor, no turbo) back to back with my Caterham SV (1.8 Miata motor with turbo) and I was very impressed with it. You can find their build and modification logs HERE.

 

In a couple of ways it was superior to my Caterham. The steering was lower effort and had slightly better feel and feedback. The pedals were much better aligned for heel & toe work.

 

It was suprisingly quick with the stock 1.6 motor, much better than I expected.

 

I saw this car several times during its assembly and was impressed with the frame, weld quality and the use of the Miata diff and IRS.

 

A few things I didn't like as much as on the Cat were the style of the bodywork and the use of the Miata instrument cluster.

 

If I were going to build another one there is a good possibility it would be an FM Westfield.

 

Skip

[jbanker]

Avery,

 

PM me at jbanker@indy.rr.com

I am aware of a Se7en that just came up for sale by word of mouth within the last few days. It has not been advertised and it might be what you are looking for.

Jack

[powderbrake]

I understand your apprehension regarding Superformance S1 parts, perhaps one of the S1 guys here could give us the scoop on this. Thay are a beautifully finished machine, more like a regular car than most other se7ens.

 

You have selected a price range that will allow the purchase of many fine 7's, as indicated by your list. There really isn't a bad car on your list.

 

An awful lot of your choice rests on your desire to get as close to a Lotus as possible. The farther you get from that "original" provenance, the lower the cost of the car. The Caterham and the Birkin are the most Lotus like of the batch. If that is not as important to you, many more possibilities open up, including some Ultralites, Stalkers, Locosts, and Demans, which are not on your list.

 

Whatever you do, by all means, go see and ride in some of these cars. I believe this weekend at Carlisle PA there will be a bunch of se7ens, maybe you can work it in. see the Mid Atlantic thread, Carlise Car Count.

[sparecr]

I would think a Caterham or a Birkin might be a tight fit for someone at 6' 180, it will depend on how you wear it. The S1 is a bigger car so you may fit better. I have not sat in the latest Westfield yet so I cannot give a thought there. A Stalker might also be an option for you, I see Jack B. is involved here so he will tell you all you need to know. You really should drive up to Carlisle. Yes a woman might be able to do some things but they are everywhere all the time. A gathering of 15-20 7's doesn't happen often in the US. If you can't come up ask around I know there are Stalkers, Caterhams, Lotus, Birkins, Locosts all within a few hours drive of you and you really need to try these cars, everyone is so different.

[Avery Waterman]

You are right; and if I had known and planned ahead, I would be at Carlisle. But seriously, I cannot stand her up like that, and she cannot make the roadtrip.

 

Also, beyond finding the right Se7en, I really need to find out whether, under what circumstances, and to what extent any can be registered for general versus limited transportation use in Virginia. I am not interested in driving limited to hobby-related events.

[sparecr]

I have my car registered in VA (1978 Caterham) on real VA plates. If you buy a completed car from out of state there should be no real problems other than emissions (depending on your local and model year of car) and how well you get along with garage that does your inspections. I also just read a post here VA just passed new kit car regulations so check into that, from what I knew about this it should make it a breeze (if the goverment wasn't involved):7frog:

[JohnK]

I spent months climbing all over S1s doing a consulting project for a dealer here (developing a wiring harness for the stock Zetec's Ford engine management system)and was very impressed with both the quality of the product and the amount of car you got for the money (upholstery, fittings, seats, top, side windows, . . .). I had intended to buy a used one myself but got sidetracked. I also spent over a year tuning several S1s that were fitted in different states of tune and running the Webcon ECU, so I got to talk with a number of owners. One owner is 6' 3" and enjoys taking trips with his wife and has done track days at Pocono. While I don't have equivalent experience with other clones, my opinion is that the S1 is the "best value for the money", if the S1 suits what you are looking for. The reliability seems very good. If you wind up thinking seriously about buying one of this marque, and if it runs the Webcon ECU, find out what calibration is used; the "generation 2, Dr. John" calibration is a very good one - I'm certain there are bootleg copies about. Best of luck in your decision making.

[solder_guy]

although I already have a toyota Rotus 7 .. I've been drooling over the Brunton Stalker 6!

 

Rob

 

[haiku88]

I am 6'1", 200 lbs, (and 50 too) and just fit in a Birkin w/ the adjustable pedal box all the way forward. Have only had the Birkin 2 mos. and overall am very happy with it, but should have checked it out a little better as it was not built very well by the dealer (I' m the second owner) ...but am slowly fixing all the sloppy work...and FWIW this is my first 7. Also be aware that for a few years Birkins came with modified ball joints that eventually fail and A arms that are prone to bending. My ball joint failure occurred at low speed but could have been deadly at high speed. Got the ball joints replaced with strong ones and had the bent A arm straightened and (both) reinforced, but wish I'd known about this in advance. Many cars have already been fixed, but definitely check this out if you get serious about one. The stock wiring is really bad for certain years too, but again this has been fixed on many. cars There is a Birkin group at Yahoo if you want to do more research on them

 

[mst3kguy]

Avery,

I'm very new as well, so take anything I say with a grain of salt. First...enjoy your date. Women, due to their good fuel economy, are probably soon going to be cheaper and more fun than a sports car soon anyway...that didn't sound quite right...but you know what I mean.

I seems to me based off of the generally friendly, sociable, and obsessed people that are on this forum that there will be more gathering to go to in the future...so no worries.

Now I'm 6'2"-3" ish, I went to the local Caterham dealer just to see if I fit. he had an old 72' that was his personal racer...couldn't get into that...no way. Then he had me jump into a newer Caterham classic. I could get it, but my knees were on the steering wheel, and I had to take off my shoes to actually be able to work the pedals (size 13 Tevas...not good shoes to test fit a Seven in). But he said with a thinner style seat I'd probably be able to fit in a classic. Then I got to get in to a Caterham SV...fit perfectly...even with my sandles...I really didn't want to get out on the car.

Point being, you actually do need to see what you physically can fit into before you make a decision. Several guys pointed that out, and they are bang on. I'm luck t have local examples around me. I have a Caterham Dealer, The US Westfield importer and a dealer, And a third place that speciallizes in Caterhams and Birkins (with a Birkin in stock). I still need to go to the Westfield and Birkin guys to see how I like the fit of those before I figure out what I want.

I would Really suggest you take some of these guys up on their offers to see what their cars are like in person so you can see what you need. Caterham classics got longer cockpits sometime in the early 80's I think, and some newer Cats have seats, narrower transmission tunnels, lowered floors (that might be westfield...its late and I'm not thinking strait) that all change the room you have to fit into. And getting a ride in someone else's car when they know what its limits are, how much power they have, convience options (tail pipe in the back to reduce noise, roof, diffrent rims/tires etc.), it will help you figure out what you want in yours.

Its more fun to play with toys with others, than by yourself...I'm sure it wouldn't be to hard to get someone here to take you for a spin. :7fume:

 

Oh...and anyone in the DFW area who wants to show me a Seven... :nopity: ...I'll pay for ga$$$

[1-t]

Not a Se7en owner yet. I plan on buying one soon after I return to the States. I have been mulling over some of the same questions you have for the past 4 years while in Japan. The kind people on this forum have helped me a great deal decide on what I will be purchasing. The cars you listed plus some of the other Se7ens out there all have advantages, it really depends upon what you want the car for. I want a hobby car to spend time with my daughter. It has to have the ability to scare the snot out of me, either with too much motor such as a Woody Birkin or enough frame flex and weak brakes such as a Lotus Seven S2.

 

Personal comments on the cars you listed:

 

1. DBR motor has the most bragging rights, except for Al’s Orange.

 

2. 2007 Westfield: Beautiful car and probably the requiring the least amount of tinkering

 

3. 2004 Birkin: My personal favorite will require sorting which is fun and the builder has a long history with Lotus’ and Se7ens.

 

4/5 Superformance S1: Everyone I talk with that has owned one loves them. Pictures do not do the fit and finish justice.

 

6. Stalker: Simple, well engineered and manufactured car. Man are they something on a race track

 

7. Lotus 7: The most fun of the bunch, limited by how numb your butt gets and about 50 miles.

 

[Avery Waterman]

Commentators agree about the craftmanship of Superformance S1. But I really would like to hear from current and/or recent S1 owners about my real concern: parts availability and other support by Superformance since it stopped production of the S1 in 2004. Thank you.

[Sean]

Pardon the minor hijack...

 

Hey 1-t - in my experience, a guy can probably see more Sevens on the winding roads around Hakone on any sunny weekend than in a month anywhere in the states.

 

 

Sorry Avery, but I have zero experience with the S1.

[S1Steve]

Avery,

I"m not sure what you mean by "parts.

Zetec engine parts can be had everwhere.

Trans parts, UK

Rear end is a Toyota light weight truck rear.

I have bought my S1 new in 02, it has 11000 miles on it ,and there has been no need for body parts.

As far as I know if you needed body parts, Superformance has them or can have them made at the factory.But I always have that thought in the back of my head, and don't want to find out the hard way,that a body part can't be made or found. It is a point to be thinking about. I try not to hit anything hard or be hit. I just bought a wind shield frame, only because it was a brand new piece and it was cheap. These S1's are VERY WELL BUILT, strong,mine is not falling apart, and I keep a close eye on it, which needs to be done on ANY 7 you may wind up getting.

Oh, did I say they are BEAUTIFUL !!!!

Good luck, look close at what you buy, and drive anything you can get your hands on !! Stevehttp://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/upload/546101970_Dogs , Baby and The S1 019.jpg

[new2 7s]

As a point of reference in fitting a Caterham 7.

 

I'm 6'3" and 205 lbs. size 12 feet, I own a DeDeon Caterham 7 and it's a snug fit but when it comes to taking high speed turns on the track or doing some canyon runs in the local mountain it's really nice to have a tight fit.

 

I suspect the Caterham and Westfields will have the best resale value of most 7 or replica 7 available.

[gjslutz]

Last fall I was where you are now at. 6'1" and 210 LBS, I was lusting after a WCM Ultralite. I was unable to find one. I ended up with a low mile Birkin that I have now made to fit. Dave in Mt. I think is 6'5" and drives a Birkin. Mine was well built and has been a start & drive away, much like a Porsche. It still is and I love my 2nd choice. I think any make 7 that is well built would fit the bill for you. I have not seen any I would not want to own, I think you could purchase any and smile as long as you own it. I have owned way too many exotic and other sport cars. The bang for the $$ on the 7 is the best yet. I never thought I could have this much fun below 130 MPH, but it is a blast!

 

Gary