bye bye pontiac....

[southwind25]

GM cutting Pontiac.

 

They make the solstice..which is actually a decent sportscar.

 

this is bad news.

 

 

 

Why not cut Buick? And instead of trying to sell off Hummer and Saturn. Cut Hummer and Saturn.

 

 

 

I really never liked GM cars that much… except for corvette and a few Pontiacs.

 

GTO’s Firebirds early trans am’s…

 

pontiac has allot of history. Hate to see it get deleted.

 

 

 

This is really sad.

[slngsht]

Buick is doing well. tough to take down the brand on top of the JD Powers list right now.

 

If anything, they should do away with GMC. Is there anything they sell that's not a rebadged chevy truck?

 

Pontiac has had some really decent cars of late.

 

But not to worry, .gov will tell them what to do.

[Davemk1]

But not to worry, .gov will tell them what to do.

 

As long as they keep holding out their hand for more billions of dollars I feel the lender has every right to tell them what to do. It's clear that left to their own devices they won't use it well.

 

dave

[MHKflyer52]

GM cutting Pontiac.

 

They make the solstice..which is actually a decent sportscar.

 

this is bad news.

 

Why not cut Buick? And instead of trying to sell off Hummer and Saturn. Cut Hummer and Saturn.

 

 

The Solstice is a Saturn that is rebadged for Pontiac so it will still be around and Buick has very high sales in China which Pontiac dose not is one reason that I know of.

As for the Hummer I would agree that it should be cut from their lineup as the H1 was never meant to be sold to the public and is not any more to my limited knowledge and the H2 is the same chassis as a Tahoe and 1/3 more expensive and besides we really do not need more SUV's on the road that never get used off road or for what they were designed for it the first place but they seem to be the two name brands that have a market that seem to be saleable and not effect Chevrolet in the long run.

Just my belief and observations that all.

[pksurveyor]

I had one of the first Hummer H2 and it was one of the worse built vehicles in the world. The only good thing about the H2 is that you can take it to any Chevrolet or GMC dealer for service when it breaks down. It saved me from camping on the side of the road several times.

[slngsht]

As long as they keep holding out their hand for more billions of dollars I feel the lender has every right to tell them what to do. It's clear that left to their own devices they won't use it well.

 

dave

they're holding their hand out because another one of their body parts is being squeezed by the union. it's a no-win situation.

[Davemk1]

they're holding their hand out because another one of their body parts is being squeezed by the union. it's a no-win situation.

 

You got that right! My sympathy goes out the the guys working on the line who, through no fault of their own, are facing a new dark reality. I have zero sympathy for the company as a business as they signed on the dotted line with the unions. They made a very bad business decision and now they are paying for it. In my mind this is how it works. You screw up, you lose.

 

Dave

[slngsht]

You got that right! My sympathy goes out the the guys working on the line who, through no fault of their own, are facing a new dark reality. I have zero sympathy for the company as a business as they signed on the dotted line with the unions. They made a very bad business decision and now they are paying for it. In my mind this is how it works. You screw up, you lose.

 

Dave

 

The union members who enjoyed the benefits are going down with the ship. Reality is hitting like a ton of bricks. This is what GM was offering them to leave last year. How many businesses are forced into forking out that much money when they're crashing and burning?

 

The model has changed. The big 3 got into this mess when employees were lifers. Once that model changed and their competitors were not bound by that, their employment models became obsolete, but through a combination of bad management and union power, they were never able to restructure - just keep fighting over a shrinking pie.

 

The automaker had offered $35,000 cash across the board in 2006 for its retirement-eligible workers, but Ford and Chrysler recently increased their retirement incentives for hourly workers and the U.S. economy has weakened since 2006.

Workers may choose a lump-sum payment, an annuity, or roll part or all of it into an individual retirement account or a 401K to postpone the tax hit and potentially make the offer worth much more than those on offer for UAW workers at Ford.

GM factory workers who retire after 30 years currently have pensions of about $3,100 per month, plus health benefits.

The company also has lowered the eligibility for an enhanced retirement program for workers with 26 years experience who will be allowed to take what amounts to a reduced pension for four years before entering full retirement.

GM workers who are over 50 with at least 10 years experience may retire with reduced pensions, plus benefits.

UAW workers with more than 10 years experience also could opt for a $140,000 lump-sum buyout to leave with only their accrued pensions, or $70,000 if they have less than 10 years.

 

[Mondo]

If middle class workers here are going to have to compete with 3rd world countries for pay/benefits than we're all screwed.... who's going to be able to afford anything? It's a downward spiral. We all can't be stockbrockers/financiers or executives. People in America who work with their back/hands need to be able to have a decent living.

 

We can't taxcut our way out of a service based economy. It's a complicated problem and those complaining the loudest seem to have simplistic answers or none at all.

 

What do we need to do to have a decent middle class whom can own a home, a car, pay college for their kids and retire at some point with enough money for 2 people to enjoy life a little?

 

Personnaly, I think most individuals aren't smart enough or have the time to invest properly with 401Ks. Plus, when you can take money out to buy a home etc... it leads to problems. Someone should come up with a transferable pension system that large and small businesses can join (but not be responsible for). I recently saw something about a national retirement program proposal that would have employer/employee (it's all comes out of the same bucket really) contribute into. It would guarantee 3% over inflation per year (don't know how that would work). Social Security is a safety net and if you end up having to live off of that I feel sorry for you.

 

Anyway, I think Wall Street has a lot more explaining to do than the UAW. Sorry if I sound like one of those commie, pinko, socialist... I'm really not. We'll always have lazy people and greedy ones, but the U.S. needs a strong middle class and not turn into (or should I say not go back to) a country of the few haves and the many have nots.

 

No hard feelings to anyone who feels different... we on this board won't solve this. But we're lucky enough to have a car that allows us to go for a quick blat and forget all our troubles;)

Edited April 27, 2009 by Mondo

[slngsht]

well, you have hit the nail on the head as the root cause. we can't be for a global economy and expect to have a higher living standard. Similarly, a low skill assembly line job that pays 60K a year with health benefits is not sustainable. If it's sustained, we get to where we are now with GM.

Like it or not, our future is tied to India and China. Even if the economy was not as global, they would dictate what happens here simply by their oil consumption.

[yellowss7]

Socialism it's the only answer. Now what was the question? Some thing about "to each according to their needs"

 

I need 100 octane race gas. Lots of it. Someone else will have to worry about that global warming thing.

 

Tom

[oilteq]

It seems to me that as workers became more productive, fewer workers were required, and then the economic downturn again lowered the need for labor. With people living longer and UAW pension plans, there were just too many people to support with too few workers.

 

Although I am concerned about GM, I am more concerned that GM is just a model for the United States. I do not see Social Security and Medicare sustainable as more and more baby boomers retire, and fewer people produce. As far as managing the problem... the greedy businessmen at GM balanced their budget more recently than the people in Washington. We will all be screwed in a few years. Just my 2 cents.

[slomove]

I am with Mondo....most sensible opinion I have read for a while on any blog.

 

If your car's ECU software has a bug you are not going to fix it with a file and a screwdriver. Given that the economy is way more complex and less deterministic I am convinced that similarly simple solutions to fix the economic mess are foolish.

 

On the other hand, looking at the economy eggheads in and around the administration I just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling they know if their recipes will work. But if not them who else? Surely not Joe Schmo parroting left or right wing party propaganda.

 

I am an engineer and not an economist so what do I know...but what I never understood is how a country living high on the hog can allow to let its manufacturing base die and have a sustained trade deficit over decades to pay for imported goods and materials. That is indeed pretty simple: at some point the collateral and the credit runs out and you are bankrupt. I have also a hard time to accept that this is an irreversible result of globalization.

 

Oh well, in 20 years there will be other problems...

 

Gert

[slngsht]

On the other hand, looking at the economy eggheads in and around the administration I just don't get a warm and fuzzy feeling they know if their recipes will work. But if not them who else? Surely not Joe Schmo parroting left or right wing party propaganda.

 

The problem is not something that economists can solve on their own. As you point out, all the shell games are just buying us time. In a sense, we're seeing the decline of our standard of living due to globalization. I don't know if it's good or bad, but it's inevitable that poor (but hard working countries) will continue to move up, and we'll move down - unless there is a game changer.

[southwind25]

Anyway, I think Wall Street has a lot more explaining to do than the UAW. Sorry if I sound like one of those commie, pinko, socialist... I'm really not. We'll always have lazy people and greedy ones, but the U.S. needs a strong middle class and not turn into (or should I say not go back to) a country of the few haves and the many have nots.

 

good observation, and probably very accurate.

 

still i hope the solstice hangs on, i would like to find one for a beater in about 5 years.

[MHKflyer52]

Just a thought but did this not happen to the Roman Empire (over extended, lavish lifestyles) and in more modern times the British Empire...just a though...will the United States ever be the same again at this rate of problems with the economy...I sure do not know and am not smart enough to even try to figure it out but I am worried and being very cautious with my financial transactions more than ever and hope everyone on this forum is doing the same.

[BobDrye]

It is amazing how, all I believe, can be summed up in one unique article how I feel but do not know intellectually how to express in words.

If your mind is glued shut, don't even bother to click the link.

 

This IS what we and our next generations have to look forward to.

 

http://www.hillsdale.edu/news/imprimis/archive/issue.asp?year=2009&month=04

[Mondo]

There are many valid points in that article. I guess it comes down to expectations of our society. We don't want to be a nanny state but we want some security. Seems, with this election, that most people felt government was taking advantage of the average Schmo to the benefit of big business. Right or wrong, the pendulum has swung to the left.

 

Perhaps we can learn from the mistakes being made in Europe/Canada as we're the last to be addressing some of these issues. I hope people will soon see the political correctness of Global Warming and start getting objective facts instead of the hyperbol (the Galaxy doesn't revolve around us anymore than man creating an environmental apocolypse in the last 50 years - read Red Hot Lies). Lets put our efforts toward clean energy and self suffiency (all options) so we aren't dependent on the middle east. That alone is good enough reason for me.

 

As far as healthcare, the latest from Obama is "affordable healthcare" not free universal care. Granted, it could be the first step down that road.

 

I still think some type of open pension plan that is based on investment, not taxes, is the way to go... just have to keep the politicians hands out of the till (they tried to take ("borrow") some of California state workers pension money a couple of times and luckily failed - they said it was overfunded). I just fear we're heading for tough times due to the switch from managed pensions to individual 401ks.

Edited April 29, 2009 by Mondo

[Arya Ebrahimi]

I wish we could go back to the days of the government protecting our shores, delivering the mail, and leaving us the hell alone.

 

I guess the days of personal responsibility and survival of the fittest are gone.

 

We're entitled to life, liberty, and the PURSUIT of happiness. Nobody ever said happiness was guaranteed or even possible...

[yellowss7]

Arya, you are wise beyond your years. I hope that more and more that your words become the rally cry to save us from the crap that is being foisted upon us now.

 

Tom