How does a 1600 crossflow compare to a Zetec or Duratec

[Kess]

I owned a Superformance S1 with FI Zetec. It was mostly well sorted and other than running rich gave me no trouble.

 

I am looking at a crossflow equipped car now for purchase. It has 1600 engine with Webbers. Just trying to decide if the money I save on what looks like a well sorted car is worth it or if I should keep looking and find a car with a Zetec or Duratec. It looks like savings might be $4-6K. How hard/expensive is it to upgrade to a Zetec or Duratec? While I enjoy working on the toy cars I am finding I have too little time to really spend doing so at present. Will an FIed cars be more reliable?

 

Your collective wisdom is greatly appreciated.

 

Gary

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kess

[Kitcat]

X-flow sounds better, has (much) less power, worse mileage. Depends on use of car. If auto-x/track days, extra power is nice. If blats, who cares? For blats I preferred my X-flow due to the glorious sound. Naturally, it's nice having 2x the power at the track (tho harder to actually stay on the track!).

 

Very difficult, not impossible to swap X-flow out for Zetec, even harder to swap for Duratec (intake/exhaust are opposite). Happy hunting. And remember, there is no bad se7en, just varying degrees of goodness:).

Edited January 20, 2012 by Kitcat

[Ian7]

the emotional Kent vs. Zetec argument aside, the conversion cost from Kent to Zetec is usually more than expected... figure closer to 8k than 4k.

 

if you want Zetec, I'd say be patient and find one ready to use....

 

(says the Kent owner who also loves the sound) :-)

[Kess]

Thank you for the replies. I really like the 1600 car as it appears to be well sorted. In the end despite that fact it looks like I will just keep looking for zetec car as I do not think I would be happy with a low HP car. Although the great engine sound is appealing.

 

Gary

[KiwiBirkin]

Let me put another spin on it, I had a 1600 xflow car and swapped it for a 1600 20v Toyota Blacktop motor (similar hp to a Zetec) early last year as I wanted more HP. Just yesterday I had the pleasure of driving a 1966 1500cc Orignal Lotus S3 (may have been a S2). I can tell you now I had more fun in that car over the last 2 days and had a massive smile on my face from driving it and now wish I could swap my car back to its 1600 xflow motor. Why you may ask, I can't put my finger on it fully but it was the sound of the xflow and the slightly more docile nature of the car that made it more fun and relaxing, don't get me wrong I still have a love affair with my car but really wish I never had done the engine change the xflow suited it better.

[BruceBowker]

I have 1700 X flow with Webers and it has enough power for anything I want to do.

[twobone]

I have never driven a Zetec or Duratec powered seven.

 

Some of the things I like about my xflow:

-the history behind it

-the growl

-the fiddling that comes with trying to tune the webers and timing to get it running "just right"

 

Some of the things I don't like about it

-the history means its an old engine and more likely to need a rebuild

-she could use a bit more mid range

-the fiddling that comes with trying to tune the webers and timing to get it running "just right"

 

If you want a zero head ache car with big power, I suspect a fully sorted fuel injected zetec is the way to go. If you want to really connect with the Lotus legend, get an x-flow

 

An xflow is kind of like the woman you love. You can't live with them, and you can't live without them.

[MHKflyer52]

Someone once told me that true driving skill is driving fast without having a lot of HP and still having fun at the end of the day.

 

Having said that my car is powered by a BMC 1800cc (MGB engine) and has what most feel is low HP for a 7 but like KiwiBirkin and BruceBowker and Twobone have said or indicated that the HP is not what makes the car but how the car is driven and enjoyed.

 

I find that I am typically in the top times at the autocross's I have attended, not the fastest and not the slowest but it sure is fun to watch the big HP cars try to do better. :cooldude:

http://usa7s.com/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=3389&d=1314388466

 

Kess (Gary) May I suggest that you find and drive several 7's with different HP engines to help you make your decision on which car to purchase as some with high HP will be fun at first but might not be what you will not enjoy the most or able to uses to its maximum all the time especially if you intend to use the 7 on the street. Besides you never know you might find a 7 that just fits perfect even if it does not have BIG HP.

[Kess]

Thank you all for the thoughtful replies to my query. That is what I like about this forum.

 

I have had a 7 that had a Zetec. It was FIed and was low maintenance as far as the engine running well went. I am sure I would enjoy and be frustrated by the Webbers.

 

I like more HP in most cases, but when I had the Superformance S1 I also had a low milage totally stock 1990 Miata. It had 28K miles on it and cost less than $3K. When I say stock even the tires were original (and hard!). It was a 1.6 small HP car, but I really enjoyed driving it. Something about trying to make a slow car go fast by conserving momentum was more fun than driving a fast car slow (I also had a BMW M3 at the time).

 

I do hope to track the car, but maybe having a fast car is not that important for most of my regular use. I will likely not have the chance to test each car back to back as they are not near by. I plan to drive the one I plan to purchase and if I like it go from there.

 

Thanks again.

 

Gary

Edited January 27, 2012 by Kess

[jimrankin]

Over the last 50 years of having owned cars I can say two things with confidence:

(1) it's not the HP of the car that makes it fun, it's the car being what you want and doing what it was designed for to a great degree of sucess which in turn feeds back to the driver a love for that particular car.

(2) I've owned cars with well under 100HP and cars with way over 400HP, and no matter how many you have you will always push the pedal to the metal one day and say "I wish I had more".

It just comes down in the end to the satisfaction of knowing you are getting the best out of the car/motor you have. If being the fastest in a straight line, or down the straight, is the most important thing to you, well, your always going to be unhappy with anything you buy because someone else is always going to have "more", and they are probably already unhappy with it!

Your statement about driving the different cars and buying the one you like best is the "right way" to go, no matter the motor. This holds true for a "7" more than just about any other car on the road. We each love our own spacific type (even if we do lust after someone elses occasionally) because "7's" aren't really "cars", they are 'experiences".

[danilo]

My 2 cents :-)

The Xflow is an OLD design, yes it can be rorty fun but it's also a PITA to keep running 'on song' and the things are seemingly always needing 'something' if not a rebuild.

I had one in mine, won a few events too. But that was well over 30 years ago and I didn't mind spending most waking moments nursing it.

If that's your fantasy.. 'nuff said:-)

Dunno what the magic /reverence re Zetecs and Duratechs is based on. These are Ford Focus and Mazda 3 engines.. pedestrian fitments in a word.

Dime a dozen at pretty well Any wrecking yard.

140 hp right off the wreckers' delivery truck. You only need Mo' power in a 7 if you are Aryton Senna's faster brother or are seriously inept at driving.

[snookwheel]

jimrankin: "I've owned cars with well under 100HP and cars with way over 400HP, and no matter how many you have you will always push the pedal to the metal one day and say "I wish I had more". That is a very true statement!

 

Danilo, I'm not sure I can agree that inept driving is fixed with more power;)

[Kitcat]

My X-flow was tuned 2x and ran strong for years, didn't need any fettling. It did drip, smoke, backfire, etc., and got lousy gas mileage. But as noted above, it sounded great and, tho it didn't make lots of power, it had a nice fat, flat torque curve and was perfectly matched to the car's charater.

[JohnCh]

My crossflow experience was similar to Kitcat's. The DCOEs were set & forget, and the only failures I had were the Lucas starter (replaced with a lighter, modern, gear reduction item) and the bakelite alternator pulley which exploded one day and took the H2O pump belt with it. No damage from the resulting overheat situation, and a replacement alternator with a metal pulley ensured a repeat wouldn't occur.

 

As for not needing over 140hp, I'd argue that no one likely needs over half that figure. But wanting and enjoying over 140hp? Absolutely!

 

-John

[Sabbot]

I would echo Kitcat's comments. I've had a 1700 supersprint for 2 years. It was well set up when I bought it and I haven't had to mess about with it since. I have balanced the carbs once (but it is really not that difficullt if the jetting is correct to begin with). I have a MSD multiple spark ignition pack and it starts as well, if not better, than a Zetec-powered Sylva striker (even smaller than a seven-clone) that I owned in the UK. When I bought the Caterham I fully expected it to start leaking oil within a couple of weeks but it hasn't (my VW passat drips more oil). It does throw out oil from the crank case breather hen driven hard, but that is what the catch tank is for. The eau de castrol fragrance that you get from a long drive is just part life with a xflow.

 

Xflows are old technology but they do work and all of the bits to rebuild are available stateside (including new blocks if needed).

 

I've considered the need for more power (especially at the NJMP track day last year when some of the more powerful sevens could romp past me on the straights as if I were standing still). But with the exception of a GT3 Porsche I could just about keep up with most everything else on the track.

 

I've considered a Zetec upgrade (to get to 200bhp) and that is probably viable but would work out at about $8000 when all the bits are added up, If I did swap to a Zetec I would run twin 45s - as a nod to the old car feel, they are not difficult to set up and again the noise is wonderful.

 

I considered a duratec but the exhaust is on the wrong side so I would have to modify the body panels and don't want to do that.

 

I've considered a hyabusa power but I think if I really go down that route I rather import a Sylva r1ot from the UK for track use only and keep the caterham for blats in NJ / PA.

 

I'm currently dreaming about a Wilcox BDA/R and for an older caterham (which mine is) may well be a future option.

 

When all the considerations are are taken into account this winter will probably not see any major upgrades to power but I will swap the gear ratio's (I just don't like the ratios for 1st and 2nd in the T5 box), might invest in a LSD (as mine is making a few clunks that it shouldn't), will invest in some 13" sticky rubber and detachable front and side (anti-intrusion) braces for the roll bar for track use.

 

As a final consideration on the desire for more power and speed. A few years ago I had the pleasure of spending a wonderful day with the late Pentti Airikkala at his "left foot braking school". As an investment in more speed ~$1000 at a good race school is worth twice that in engine and brake upgrades, especially through the twisty bits.