Something is wrong with this guy!

[MoPho]

Morgan,

 

Would you please cite sources for your stats? It's increasingly difficult to find objective statistical sources... yes, I know the saying as it relates to statistics.

 

 

 

That's the point, there are no real stats and no way of knowing how much of your money actually goes to the "lazy people", that is why it is such an idiotic (and bigoted) argument by the right to suggest that all the lazy people are the problem. I am sure the amount spent is a drop in the bucket though.

 

I had found this site, but it doesn't breakdown to that much detail and I have never seen anything that does, hence why I suggest it was my best guess

http://www.wheredidmytaxdollarsgo.com/

 

 

.

[slomove]

Looks like there are still folks here who take any campaigning politicians' speeches at face value (Romney, Obama or Gingrich or whoever). Come on, who can be that naive nowadays. What they say is rather calculated by statisticians and strategists evaluating the impact on elections or even polls.

 

If anything these guys should be judged by their actions (or inaction) or at least if what they say is consistent with what they did. For that matter I don't have a problem with the maligned "flip-flopping" if that is based on real new information and events and not just to pander. Everything else would be stubborn stupid.

 

But even more stupid is repeating such politician bullshit. While I despise the actually existing welfare deadbeats that should be cut off from the money tap, I agree with MoPho they are an insignificant part of the problem. But no politician that wants to keep the job will touch the big obvious ones. If we want to get rid of the debt we need to reduce medicare, social security and military expenses AND raise taxes (of course for the wealthy but I guess that will not suffice).

[Kitcat]

Slomove just solved the budget/debt crisis. Too bad it doesn't fit anyone's narrative.

 

I think the compromise deal that Boehner and Obama cut last year came close, before being shot down by the right wing's "no-compromise" narrative. Had it not, I suspect it wld have been shot down by the left wing. So here we are, each side waiving their little red books and shouting at each other.

[speedwagon]

lets put the "good of the party" or "will it help my re-election" above what is "good for the country" There are no innocents.

[yellowss7]

So here we are, each side waiving their little red books and shouting at each other.

 

I knew it. Stinkin liberal Commie.:jester:

 

:seeya: Hi Mike. Looking forward to more spiritied discussion in June. Could be really fun with a bigger group this year. Dinner should be a hoot.

 

Tom

[Kitcat]

Tom: My Red book is bigger than yours:)! (It's on!).

[jimrankin]

There are always going to be those who at some time are going to need some help. The problem we face with welfare/food stamps/assisted housing is summed up nicely buy a statement I heard 20+ years ago, "what started out as a needed safety net has unfortulately become a comfortable hammock".

I don't know why welfare has ever been given out without some type of incentive to get off it. If the day you started on welfare you had to also get up and dressed and report for "work" every morning, such as cleaning up your own neighborhood or watching, cleaning, feeding other people's children while they did work you were not able to perform it might make you more interested in finding a regular job and also maybe a bit less inclined to have more childern you can not support.

I was infused by my parents and grandparents with what used to be called a "yankee work ethic" so while not being the sharpest knife in the set I was still able to start with nothing and eventually end up owning my own business and a very comfortable life. The group of people on "generational welfare'' that is being addressed in this post, and the children they are raising, obviously are not self motivated so unless some type of reason to change is provided, or forced on them, it will remain the status quo.

Being from California I can tell you that there are literaly millions of jobs being filled by people who sneak into this country for the advantages millions of "legal citizens" just don't have a reason to take advantage of.

I do know that if I was on welfare and I had to get up and report to the welfare center to go scrub graffiti off walls or pick up fast food wrappers and trash instead of sleeping in late and deciding just how much drama I could create with all my free time, the welfare route might not look so inviting.

Real change is not going to happen because it's a government program, and all government programs only know how to change to "bigger", not for better. So get ready for more welfare, not less, and if you think who is President is actually going to make for a change, well, you should watch an old British show calle "Yes Minister". Just so true, the leaders change, the real government goes on and on as usual.

[GBOLT]

^ +1

[MoPho]

There are always going to be those who at some time are going to need some help. The problem we face with welfare/food stamps/assisted housing is summed up nicely buy a statement I heard 20+ years ago, "what started out as a needed safety net has unfortulately become a comfortable hammock".

I don't know why welfare has ever been given out without some type of incentive to get off it. If the day you started on welfare you had to also get up and dressed and report for "work" every morning, such as cleaning up your own neighborhood or watching, cleaning, feeding other people's children while they did work you were not able to perform it might make you more interested in finding a regular job and also maybe a bit less inclined to have more childern you can not support.

I was infused by my parents and grandparents with what used to be called a "yankee work ethic" so while not being the sharpest knife in the set I was still able to start with nothing and eventually end up owning my own business and a very comfortable life. The group of people on "generational welfare'' that is being addressed in this post, and the children they are raising, obviously are not self motivated so unless some type of reason to change is provided, or forced on them, it will remain the status quo.

Being from California I can tell you that there are literaly millions of jobs being filled by people who sneak into this country for the advantages millions of "legal citizens" just don't have a reason to take advantage of.

I do know that if I was on welfare and I had to get up and report to the welfare center to go scrub graffiti off walls or pick up fast food wrappers and trash instead of sleeping in late and deciding just how much drama I could create with all my free time, the welfare route might not look so inviting.

Real change is not going to happen because it's a government program, and all government programs only know how to change to "bigger", not for better. So get ready for more welfare, not less, and if you think who is President is actually going to make for a change, well, you should watch an old British show calle "Yes Minister". Just so true, the leaders change, the real government goes on and on as usual.

 

 

It's naive to think that giving the "lazy" people incentive is going to make them go out and get jobs instead of staying on welfare. And it's naive to think that if we take away their welfare they are somehow not going to be our problem. It would just create bigger social problems (crime) and bigger costs (legal and prison)

 

And again, it absurd to act as if this is the root of the problems in this country or that it actually would make a difference to our economy or our debt

 

.

[MHKflyer52]

It's naive to think that giving the "lazy" people incentive is going to make them go out and get jobs instead of staying on welfare. And it's naive to think that if we take away their welfare they are somehow not going to be our problem. It would just create bigger social problems (crime) and bigger costs (legal and prison)

 

And again, it absurd to act as if this is the root of the problems in this country or that it actually would make a difference to our economy or our debt

 

.

 

I have to agree and things like this discussion are what makes this country a free state for the time being.

[Ian7]

Could be worse, I was invited down to this country to live and work, paid over $40k in income taxes last year, and as a 'foreigner', I don't even get to vote on who and how its spent LOL

[MoPho]

Could be worse, I was invited down to this country to live and work, paid over $40k in income taxes last year, and as a 'foreigner', I don't even get to vote on who and how its spent LOL

 

That's horrible!

 

http://cascadeclimbers.com/plab/data/516/122waaambulance.jpg

 

 

:rofl:

 

 

.

Edited February 23, 2012 by MoPho

[Kitcat]

You guys do know that ADC was abolished? And that its replacement (TANF) has a lifetime limit of 5 years, per family. Thx to Bill Clinton, who supported the change and signed it into law. So the lifetime of welfare benefits is no longer the deal.

[lucky dawg]

Geez kitkat. Way to kill a thread by using facts and logic. People don't want to hear that kind of talk.

[slomove]

Could be worse, I was invited down to this country to live and work, paid over $40k in income taxes last year, and as a 'foreigner', I don't even get to vote on who and how its spent LOL

 

I was in the same situation for a few years before I became a citizen. But, not that much changed since. Yes, I can vote on who but I have no illusions that I can vote on how the taxes are spent.

 

For that matter, I don't know how all of these guys can stand there with a straight face and promise to change this or fix that. As you can see over the last few years (or longer) the President may send the military somewhere or meekly suggest a Justice once a while but beyond that he is a slave of Congress. If they can convince the own camp their ideas are good it will surely be shot or watered down by the other side. And anything goes only if the corporate puppet masters and political pursers agree and the media lets it survive, anyway. As you can see, while I am a fiscally conservative Democrat, I have little hope this will be fixed anytime soon by either party. The folks who could change it depend on this system for their livelihood so why the heck would they change it?

 

Oh well, "rant off"......

[GBOLT]

It's naive to think that giving the "lazy" people incentive is going to make them go out and get jobs instead of staying on welfare. And it's naive to think that if we take away their welfare they are somehow not going to be our problem. It would just create bigger social problems (crime) and bigger costs (legal and prison)

 

And again, it absurd to act as if this is the root of the problems in this country or that it actually would make a difference to our economy or our debt

 

.

 

I think Jim's point was the recipient be required to do something in return for the help. There was no mention of "incentive" to work or it be taken away, the suggestion was they needed to work. What is so wrong with this? Given the historical state of the economy, I have no problem helping people, but it should be a give and take system. While there may be the "lazy" ones you mention that it does not change, what about the ones it might? There are certainly much larger issues in the structure of our country and economy, and I do not believe anyone here is "naive" enough to think this would solve the larger issues, but at 14% of the budget, safety net programs are a big piece.

 

Finally, can't we discuss the issue without throwing out comments and accusations that just incite anger one way or the other? I can respect your views, which you have made clear in prior posts -

 

1. "To me, conservatives imposing their "morals" on us is far scarier than liberals wasting our tax money"

2. "Do you know what the "mainstream of thinking" is? Who's "mainstream thinking" is correct?",

3. "I don't give a shit about your or others political opinions and I am sure not interested in hearing it. Your comment wasn't funny or sarcastic, it was uncalled for and irrelevant.".

 

Why is someone who disagrees with your views necessarily a "idiotic (and bigoted), or naive, or a "waaahhhhh, I work so hard to feed a bunch of lazy people" rightwing BS'er"?

[MoPho]

I think Jim's point was the recipient be required to do something in return for the help. There was no mention of "incentive" to work or it be taken away, the suggestion was they needed to work. What is so wrong with this?

 

I would agree that they should do some work in exchange for the help, but his point was that they should be made to do crappy work that they don't want to do as incentive to go out and get a job instead.

 

 

 

 

While there may be the "lazy" ones you mention that it does not change, what about the ones it might?

 

Sure, but my point was that when people criticize welfare they neglect to consider the consequences of taking it away from people who are not going to just pull themselves up by the bootstraps and go out and get a job. The good people are on welfare out of desperation of not finding work and the bad people are not going to change, so why make it so they are now homeless, starving, and desperate so that they become more than just a financial problem?

 

There are certainly much larger issues in the structure of our country and economy, and I do not believe anyone here is "naive" enough to think this would solve the larger issues, but at 14% of the budget, safety net programs are a big piece.

 

There are a lot of different programs in that safety net besides welfare. The OP was complaining about having to pay taxes to "feed a bunch of lazy people". Does it say how many people are lazy in that chart? LOL

 

Finally, can't we discuss the issue without throwing out comments and accusations that just incite anger one way or the other?

 

Well what would you expect when someone starts a thread to incite anger?

 

 

I can respect your views, which you have made clear in prior posts -

 

1. "To me, conservatives imposing their "morals" on us is far scarier than liberals wasting our tax money"

2. "Do you know what the "mainstream of thinking" is? Who's "mainstream thinking" is correct?",

3. "I don't give a shit about your or others political opinions and I am sure not interested in hearing it. Your comment wasn't funny or sarcastic, it was uncalled for and irrelevant.".

 

Did you really go back to old posts to quote me? Really?

 

 

 

Why is someone who disagrees with your views necessarily a "idiotic (and bigoted), or naive, or a "waaahhhhh, I work so hard to feed a bunch of lazy people" rightwing BS'er"?

 

I don't have a problem with people having different views, I have a problem with people spewing hateful garbage which is exactly what the OP did by starting this thread

 

 

 

And I've said it before this community is too small for these kinds of discussions

 

 

.

[BusaNostra]

I don't have a problem with people having different views, I have a problem with people spewing hateful garbage which is exactly what the OP did by starting this thread

 

 

To suggest I was the one who spewing hateful, then I don't know what you smoking.

It's your President in the video who is dividing the Americans. It's him who spewing hatred and division. You play the video and listen.

The word "lazy & free takers" are my answer to what he implied that I'm not playing fair. His tone was a threat to me & angered me with his lies.

 

LAZY - ABUSER - & FREE TAKERS reververating to your eardrum was not easy to listen, i know --- only applies to those who are guilty of abusing the system. The deficit, the debt and the wastefull stupid!

 

You research and you will find that the takers outweight the payers. You cannot build a successful or better country if the takers outweight the payers....plain and simple!

 

I'm straight as an arrow & straight shooter.

Edited February 23, 2012 by BusaNostra

[HOTTTCAR]

WTF

 

SOMBODY END THIS ABSURD DISCUSSION

Gale

[jimrankin]

Go out and drive!. If it's not running, shut off the computer and go work on it!.