Build vs. buy debate

[coffee break]

Twerd68,

I don't recall how you are planning on using a 7. Street only, track only or some of both?

If you have (oops) I missed it.

Thanks

[Twerd68]

Both! I know nothing about racing but have been studying local Chicago/Midwest area track day schedules and so forth. I also hope to put a canvas top on whatever I buy or build and try to extend it to a three season car. I am obsessed with the Stalkers and the v8 sound and have been following this website and saving my pennies for a couple of years now. Time is getting close -- one way or another I plan to take the leap late winter/early spring.

[rnr]

My v8 over v6 preference comes from the following experience: whenever I drive a fast four or six I have a great time when driving fast. But when I drive a fast v8 I also have fun rumbling slowly along.

 

If you like driving a Seven (and not everyone does) you will have fun at all speeds regardless of the engine. The sensory experience is unique and is fun even in slow traffic. As for speed the weight difference means they are fast regardless - the S2K puts down just 162 lb/ft but can spin its wheels in 3rd gear.

[Kitcat]

Not sure if anyone has ever put AC into any iteration of a se7en, Stalker Caterham, Birkin, etc. Of course, there is always a first time.

 

My 1st Caterham did have a heater. When on during the summer it made prodigious heat. In the spring and fall, hardly noticeable:). It still was a 3 season car, just cold when it was cold, (extremely) hot when it was hot, and perfect when the weather was perfect. And always fun. My most memorable ''blats" include the times I was coldest/hottest.

 

And dont forget rain. The Caterhams are surprisingly water resistant (not water proof). Not sure abt the Stalkers.

 

Great thread, btw.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Kitcat

[bigdog]

Kitcat, it must have been your heater. My 1983 1600 x-flow puts out plenty of heat, I've had it out in the rain at just a few degrees above freezing and been rather comfy.

 

I'll also be the odd man out with regards to engines. I prefere to stick with the Chapman formula. A peppy four cylinder will certainly make one smoother by forcing one to maintain momentum.

 

When I rode motorcycles. I delighted in pestering the big CC crotch rockets in the corners while riding a single cylinder Husqvarna super moto. I was always of the opinion that any gorilla can pin the throttle on a straight, but the real drivers shine in the tight stuff and must use the transmission. I get more fun from curves than max velocity. But of course that's just my opinion, and I don't begrudge folk that see it differently.

[carsport]

My lady friend owns a Birkin. She had no clue as to what a Lotus was until we met. I showed her pictures, and I had a Lotus Europa. I found a Birkin close to us and we looked at it. When we drove up the street to the house and she saw the Birkin in the garage, well -- she had it bought before we got out of the car.

 

I also bought a Stalker V6 3.4v6. # 4 chassis (very early design). It was the builders first build and he built another one which he also sold. He enjoyed the build. I bought because I wanted to drive it right now. Since then I have reworked some things to make it mine. I have now signed it over to my sons who autocross it.

 

I also, sent another fellow to a friend and he bought a Stalker.

 

If you have an owner close, then catch a ride, drive, have a good visit.

 

There is a Stalker on this sight for sale, the one on ebay now or recently, the one I think in Texas that Shane posted a picture of, and I believe Bob in Florida still has his super stalker for sale, since he built an M-spec.

 

If you want to build, I believe Jumpin Jim up in Iowa at SugarGroveCars, still has two classic kits. He and his group built 100, 101, 102, 104 pictured on the Stalker Gallery sight. They also finished the stalker Ecotech turbo 4 cyl that Jack Banker just bought. I believe a school had bought that kit for a school project but never finished it. I delivered 103 from Houston to Iowa then Jim sold it from his shop.

 

As far as air conditioning in a Stalker YES, Gale has AC in his Stalker pictured on the stalker gallery.

 

Welcome to the fun!!

[Twerd68]

Yes, Scott relatively recently made AC available for the XL. Bigdog, I totally hear you o making the car light, not ridiculously powerful, BUT I just cannot help but love that V8 sound and feel. It is a purely non-rational preference. Like I said earlier, it is so much fun just going slow with that big rumble.

 

My next challenge will be to find a taller seller if I buy used so I don't have to move too much stuff around as I am a true 6'-2".

 

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and contributions. It's been really fun hearing everyone's perspective. I don't know which way I'll go -- except that it will be a Seven!!!!

[bigdog]

Yes, Scott relatively recently made AC available for the XL. Bigdog, I totally hear you o making the car light, not ridiculously powerful, BUT I just cannot help but love that V8 sound and feel. It is a purely non-rational preference. Like I said earlier, it is so much fun just going slow with that big rumble.

 

My next challenge will be to find a taller seller if I buy used so I don't have to move too much stuff around as I am a true 6'-2". ��

 

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and contributions. It's been really fun hearing everyone's perspective. I don't know which way I'll go -- except that it will be a Seven!!!!

 

You might be surprized in the fit. My wife and I went to London on holiday this past August, While there we stopped by this dealer: [/url]http://www.hallmark-cars.com/index.html

 

We went to look at the 1991 westfield SeiW, The wide bodied car. It was rather snug. Reason being, Yes it is wider but on the westfields the trans tunnel is very wide. We then tried out a 1996 Caterham narrow body. It had more room than the westfield did as the Caterhams have a very narrow tunnel.

 

The prior owner of my S3 Caterham is 6' 2". When I have the seat in the rearmost position, I can only tip toe the pedals. It has the nicely padded cloth seats as well. (which are rather thick) One could make even more room with a race style seat

 

This is the shop I ended up buying my Caterham from. http://www.mikeabbasclassiccars.co.uk/index.htm

He has some really nice cars. Esp that 1953 Austin-Healey 100/4 on the for sale page 1. It's a 6 figure car and flawless.:drool: Can't believe he let me touch that car and lean into it to check it out.

[subtlez28]

Yes, Scott relatively recently made AC available for the XL. Bigdog, I totally hear you o making the car light, not ridiculously powerful, BUT I just cannot help but love that V8 sound and feel. It is a purely non-rational preference. Like I said earlier, it is so much fun just going slow with that big rumble.

 

My next challenge will be to find a taller seller if I buy used so I don't have to move too much stuff around as I am a true 6'-2". ��

 

Thanks to everyone for their thoughts and contributions. It's been really fun hearing everyone's perspective. I don't know which way I'll go -- except that it will be a Seven!!!!

 

I think I can relate to your situation directly!

 

I am a V-8 guy. Specifically an LS engine guy. I want the rumble of a V-8 for cruising, and awe inspiring power, even if it isn't all usable on the street.

 

I was drawn the the 7, specifically the Stalker as it is likely the lightest thing a home mechanic can put an LS in.

 

What brought these cars onto my radar was seeing an LS3 powered Stalker blow everything away at a track event at Autobahn Country Club (in Joliet).

 

Point, being, like you I had the possibly irrational need for the V-8. I just don't enjoy the sound of lower displacements.

 

As to your question on build vs buy. I'm going to vote buy a V-6 Stalker, drive it a bit, then swap in the LS engine later. But, I'm near the fence on the issue as building a car is quite an education.

 

I picked up my M-spec in December of 2012. I had dreams of driving it in the spring thanks to those mythical 2 month builds you mentioned.

 

I have a job, and kids, and other hobbies, so maybe my dedication wasn't where it needed to be. It is still is in progress. Life keeps getting in the way, but hopefully this spring...

 

So my recommendation comes from the fact I wish I could have driven it last summer.

 

Hopefully I'll be singing the opposite tune once mine is on the road!

 

Sorry, I'm drowsy and rambling a bit.

 

I'm not real far from you. Feel free to PM me if you want to check out my build in person. I also have a recommendation on a club to race with when you are ready for some road course time.

[bigdog]

After looking at photo's of that autobahn track I can see why an LS3 would pass everyone. That's a pretty wide open autobahn type track.

 

Just an observation after having lived in Europe for a few years now. It's kind of funny to see how different the two counties are when it comes to track days. In Europe most take their street based car and use a track day to learn how to improve one's driving and to generally have fun sans cops.

 

In America it looks to be just the opposite. One buys a barely streetable mega powered car to use on a track day to make sure they stick it to the other guy. Even though track days are not a race. A timed autocross is a great way to have fun with low risk. And it will teach you how to really drive your seven.

 

Nothing wrong with either scenario. Just something that makes me go HMMMMM!

 

When I drove the Nurburgring. They briefed me that one will get kicked off the track for aggressive driving or passing. As it was a track day, Not a sanctioned race.

Edited January 6, 2014 by bigdog

[HOTTTCAR]

Damn and I thought all great race drivers were aggressive when behind the wheel of a race car.

Gale

[HOTTTCAR]

Damn and I thought all great race drivers were aggressive when behind the wheel of a race car.

 

Oh sorry .....TRACK DAY.....got it.......safety first.

Gale

[Twerd68]

After looking at photo's of that autobahn track I can see why an LS3 would pass everyone. That's a pretty wide open autobahn type track.

 

Just an observation after having lived in Europe for a few years now. It's kind of funny to see how different the two counties are when it comes to track days. In Europe most take their street based car and use a track day to learn how to improve one's driving and to generally have fun sans cops.

 

In America it looks to be just the opposite. One buys a barely streetable mega powered car to use on a track day to make sure they stick it to the other guy. Even though track days are not a race. A timed autocross is a great way to have fun with low risk. And it will teach you how to really drive your seven.

 

Nothing wrong with either scenario. Just something that makes me go HMMMMM!

 

When I drove the Nurburgring. They briefed me that one will get kicked off the track for aggressive driving or passing. As it was a track day, Not a sanctioned race.

 

Funny. Yes, it's fun ego-wise to have a ridiculously fast car. Also funny that if I build a crazy V8 Stalker I know my driving will suck enough that track day will be me grossly underutilizing a tremendous car -- getting passed by guys in Datsuns. However, on non-track days I'll get the joy or rumbling down to the Starbucks grinning like a fool. :driving:

[Twerd68]

Damn and I thought all great race drivers were aggressive when behind the wheel of a race car.

 

Oh sorry .....TRACK DAY.....got it.......safety first.

Gale

 

I love your car, HOTTTCAR. I have lurked the hardtop build for forever. . .

[xcarguy]

When I drove the Nurburgring . . .

 

"Bloody hell" The ring again? Sorry, bigdog, just couldn't resist. :jester:

[bigdog]

"Bloody hell" The ring again? Sorry, bigdog, just couldn't resist. :jester:

 

Believe me, I'm in the same camp as you & Jezza. I cringe & gnash my teeth when a builder mentions the fact that they developed a new "street" car at "the ring" like it's a good thing.

 

I only mention the ring as I had driven my Zed4 there in 2010 and was briefed at the front desk when buying laps that it was verboten to drive like an American Nascar driver during a non-race "track day". There are several US military bases within a 90 minute drive and the Americans are known for trying to "win" a track day at all costs. Which to be honest was quite embarrassing that our (US) reputation as not being very good and yet rather aggressive drivers is well known to Europeans.

 

So I must apologize to the forum members if I seem a bit down on US drivers for always wanting to go for big HP V8's (just for the sound) in such a small car that has none of the electronic nannies that we have grown accustomed to and have come to rely upon. As we have had those nannies for so long, We have mostly lost the skill set of knowing what the limit is. We just push the gas or the brake as hard as we can and let the computer sort it all out. So I think that putting 430HP in an unaided street seven is not the best way to try and relearn those skills. Just a little to much right foot exiting a corner will have one meeting a tree or an oncoming car ass first.

 

It has been a real eye opener living in Europe, one does not automatically get a license when they turn 16. The test is very, very difficult and most folks have to go to a driving school to even have a chance at passing. I live near a town of 100,000 and there are 37 driving schools within the city limits. As a result the drivers here in Germany are very, very good. So I guess I'm a little spoiled now. In truth I'd like to see the same standards in the USA that the Germans have.

 

However, The "ring" is a blast to drive.:driving:

 

I have now put on my flame proof suit. Sorry for the thread hijack as well.

[Twerd68]

Believe me, I'm in the same camp as you & Jezza. I cringe & gnash my teeth when a builder mentions the fact that they developed a new "street" car at "the ring" like it's a good thing.

 

I only mention the ring as I had driven my Zed4 there in 2010 and was briefed at the front desk when buying laps that it was verboten to drive like an American Nascar driver during a non-race "track day". There are several US military bases within a 90 minute drive and the Americans are known for trying to "win" a track day at all costs. Which to be honest was quite embarrassing that our (US) reputation as not being very good and yet rather aggressive drivers is well known to Europeans.

 

So I must apologize to the forum members if I seem a bit down on US drivers for always wanting to go for big HP V8's (just for the sound) in such a small car that has none of the electronic nannies that we have grown accustomed to and have come to rely upon. As we have had those nannies for so long, We have mostly lost the skill set of knowing what the limit is. We just push the gas or the brake as hard as we can and let the computer sort it all out. So I think that putting 430HP in an unaided street seven is not the best way to try and relearn those skills. Just a little to much right foot exiting a corner will have one meeting a tree or an oncoming car ass first.

 

It has been a real eye opener living in Europe, one does not automatically get a license when they turn 16. The test is very, very difficult and most folks have to go to a driving school to even have a chance at passing. I live near a town of 100,000 and there are 37 driving schools within the city limits. As a result the drivers here in Germany are very, very good. So I guess I'm a little spoiled now. In truth I'd like to see the same standards in the USA that the Germans have.

 

However, The "ring" is a blast to drive.

 

I have now put on my flame proof suit. Sorry for the thread hijack as well.

 

S'ok, it was a great thread, free of pomposity and judgment. Sadly, it's dead to me now. :puke:

 

Teasing, have at it. I know it's ridiculous to put a v8 in one of these cars but still good old fashioned infantile fun.

[HOTTTCAR]

I love your car, HOTTTCAR. I have lurked the hardtop build for forever. . .

 

Forever is right! 3 years!

The first Stalker took a month to build ...actual build time with two people working roughly 8 hrs/day 7 days a week.....we were total beginning amateurs. Which means you spend most of your time studying it and trying not to screw it up. The kit is very well done and we had a great time building. When we had a question, We got quick help from Brunton.

 

After build completion and 5000 heart stopping miles you get very accustomed to the torque/HP and how this incredible little car handles. For some of us at this point the need for speed/torque ..HP then kicks in. If you can get 200ft/lb more of very reliable torque with very little weight gain.... why not.......LS7......

 

So for the second one we wanted to changeup a bit and keep learning new skills. For me the design/build thing is fun but aggressive driving on north Georgia mountain roads with simularly inclined crazys is the best (Ambush).

 

 

The three year build time is the result of many, many changes, and additions to the original kit plus a lot of traveling. The fiberglass construction was the most time consuming part of the second build.

 

The first Cobra I purchased was a custom factory built turnkey..... Will never do that again. Terrible car. Stuff has been fallin off that thing for years. For me To get it the way i want it, i have to build it. Honestly, things do have to be torqued and locktited.:dupe:

 

Gale

Edited January 7, 2014 by HOTTTCAR

[xcarguy]

However, The "ring" is a blast to drive.:driving:

 

I have now put on my flame proof suit. Sorry for the thread hijack as well.

 

bigdog,

 

Just poking fun at you. However, I have to admit that driving the 'ring' is still on my bucket list. I want to! I want to! I want to! :drool:

 

And I, for one, am not going to shoot any flames your way; you have an opinion, are entitled to it, and I respect that.

 

Okay, back to the thread. I reiterate, buy and drive. :jester:

[bigdog]

Thanks for not flaming me.

 

I'm just an old git that has no interest in racing, on or off track. I'm like that kid in the Honda bike adverts. "i just wanna ride" The seven is the king of cool no matter what makes it go.