Croc

I used 3 sets of tires this week on track in France. 1) Avon ZZR extreme compound - the last runs of my last set of these 2) Avon ZZS - I use these as my intermediate/wet 3) Toyo R888R - my first time using these. I am going to focus on the Toyo R888R with points of comparison to each of the ZZR and ZZS as these tires are no longer readily available. The Caterham for this exercise was a 2018 420R SV. The Toyo R888R were 205/60/13 used on all four corners. Interestingly, I have a stagger wheel set up - 6x13 on the front and 8x13 on the rear. The same Toyo tire size was used on both wheels. The end width result looks like this. I was running at cold pressures of 17psi with the objective of 22-23psi hot. I did not get the opportunity to experiment much with pressures to see if they responded better with variations. I strongly suspect (when you read my impressions below) that a lower front pressure will work better. I don't have a set of final suspension set up numbers. I was running the traditional ZZR set up with a little more neg camber than what Caterham publish in their build manuals. I think that is too much when it comes to the Avon ZZS use and for the Toyos as well. I have asked for my car to have its suspension reset to standard Caterham manual track use when it gets back to the UK from France. My impressions: Very little scrub in needed on the Toyos compared with both Avons. The Toyos feel fairly grippy out of the box whereas the Avons used to have a greasy feel until you scrubbing them in somewhat. For the first 1 hour on track the Toyos feel almost as good as the ZZRs - within a second a lap. They are close to equal the ZZR on lateral grip - not quite as good but not that far off. Where they are some off on the ZZR is in-line grip - braking distances are not as short - I was surprised as to the difference. Its not as if the wheels are locking - I am ensuring that does not happen - but you have to be thinking braking slightly earlier, particularly downhill braking. This change is what accounts for 90% of the slower lap time by the R888 versus the ZZR. The R888 transition from braking to cornering is not as adept as the ZZR - you have to be far more precise in your driving whereas the ZZR is more forgiving of hard driving. I think that is driven by the tread pattern difference between the two. After the first 1 hour on track the R888R goes off. There is plenty of tread. The tire looks fine. But it is a very different tire in grip feel. Loses a modest amount of lateral grip and a really noticeable amount of in-line grip. Stopping distances increase slightly on the level and a noticeable amount on the downhill braking - felt like 1-2 car lengths over the ZZR and ZZS. Turn in grip is noticeably weaker in this second phase of the R888. I would have liked more time to see if dropping front pressures more helped the situation - I suspect it would have assisted somewhat but not a lot. The Avon ZZR and ZZS are great for grip consistency over their entire life. The Toyo is not like that. You get an hour and then the grip degrades a notch down. I have not driven on a track tire like that since the late 80s/early 90s when tires going off was a fairly normal part of car racing. Since then a lot of work has been put into tire compounds to make them more reliably consistent for grip over the full life - however, the R888R does not do that. Its a remarkably quick transition too - I felt it happening over 1-2 laps My experience with the R888 matches what the race guys are doing. They are using fresh Toyos for qualifying and then going to fresh Toyos for the race. This way they get the best grip phase of the tire for their competition but then throw the virtually unused R888s away afterwards. This explains why the race support guys have a huge store of 1 hour old tires lurking. Fortunately the R888 are half the price of the ZZR (when it was available - UK retail) but this is an expensive exercise for us just having some track day fun. To get the best out of the R888 then a precise driving style is required. Both the ZZR and ZZS were very forgiving of driving styles on the edge when things could be pressured or sloppy. For the pro driver this is not an issue but its a major issue for those on this thread as I bet none of us are driving with that level of precision lap in and lap out. If I had to rank the tires - clearly the ZZR are at the top with high consistent grip levels. In teh first hour then the R888 is a second place to ZZR, a clear notch below. The ZZS would be in third place at this point but its not by much. After the first hour then the R888 is worse than the ZZS - a clear big notch below. If the ZZR was ignored, then the R888 vs ZZS clear choice would easily be ZZS for me - consistency of grip over time, better stopping distances and roughly equivalent lateral grip plus its tread pattern makes it a good intermediate/light wet whereas the R888 suffers like the ZZR did in the wet. For my next set of dry track tires the plan is to follow the Roger Krause suggestion (USA - take a Formula Continental slick) which in the UK will be an Avon Motorsport slick and then hand groove a ZZR tread pattern into them. The slicks are still available from Avon in the UK only the ZZR/ZZS have supply issues. For intermediate/moderate wets, I have one set left of the ZZS so will continue on them for now. No ZZS alternative has emerged in the UK yet as there are enough ZZS stocks at TFL Racing to continue using them. If you can get them in the USA then this is my second suggestion instead of a ZZR if the preferred hand grooved dry slick option does not appeal.

I have been collecting all technical information as I see it for posting on USA7s. Nothing has ever surfaced on Rotus. If you do find something, please send me a copy and I will add it to the technical library on this site.

No. They are in 3 pieces. Two side skins and one rear basket. Join is under rear wheel arch.

They are perfect for autocrossing. There are some committed autocrossers on here so not sure why no one has commented? For myself, I have always preferred race tracks as you get a longer time behind the wheel. Pros and cons for each way I suppose.

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Try them out. If you are driving with some energy they will not last long if they are the wrong choice!

The green livery with side stripes suits it well!

I understand it to be the R888. They will be my new set for next week’s events.

Will add a reminder to my calendar. I dont think its same tire in the race 420s as most have a stagger wheel set up, including my car. The Academy is square wheel set up but I dont know what model Toyos they are running there. Oh and I will not be in the UK - Dijon and Mas Du Clos in the center of France.

Toyos - graduated grip levels for the various series.

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I run the Hoosier R7 on the CSR on track in the USA. Love them. Definitely quicker lapping than the Avon ZZR extreme compound. Good life to them as well. I think I use them in 13x7 and 13x9 on my car - not next to it to check sorry. As for Avon ZZR extreme versus Toyo R888, I can let you know 10 days from now when I am at Dijon and Mas Du Clos. I have half a set of the Avons left and a fresh set of the Toyos to go on. The only reason I went for the Toyos as a replacement is that slicks are not allowed and the best treaded tire right now, per TFL Racing who support 40 something Caterhams for race and track, are the Toyos. However, I have been told to expect to be slower by 2+ seconds a lap over the Avons - sad but thats it for now. Edited to add I did talk with Roger Krause two weeks back about what others are doing without the Avon ZZR. His solution is to take a Formula Continental slick and have it hand grooved. Gives you the life of a slick but the appearance of DOT. I have also heard that someone else is doing this is Michelin F3 tires. Depends on whether a DOT label is checked I suppose? Roger is well plugged into the owner of Nova - he's the guy for supplies when Nova is up and running.

My first call would be to Tom Carlin at Birkin USA. He should have everything you need on the shelf. While he is registered on USA7s he does not come here much as he is quite busy. Top guy!

Charlie - Clear your cookies on your browser before you buy. The major insurance companies track that shit to pre-populate your quote next time you come to buy and you do not want to be checking price options on answers that only have one correct legal answer. No idea if Hagerty does that but don't take the risk.

Hagerty offer track days and offer track day insurance. Their standard insurance policy does not cover you on track. Be careful with insurance comparisons. Insurance is state based. Premiums are based on a bunch of location stats plus your individual driving record. The standard mileage for Hagerty is usually 3K per year. They have checked me once in 20 years. The agreed value is a fair point of comparison. Hagerty historically was a Managing General Agent and relied on other insurance companies to provide the state-admitted insurance policy paper (with the Hagerty branding. While they have now bought their own licensed carrier it did not cover all states and they were still working through the regulatory stuff to get their own admitted insurance policy paper which takes a long time. I think for Oregon, Hagerty was using Essentia Insurance which is owned by Markel out of Bermuda (they are good don't worry). The thing you need to check is what limits for liability and property damage Hagerty have given you and whether they match where your umbrella personal liability policy starts at. If it does not match then you have just exposed yourself to potential liability. Its not an investment. No guarantees but if the future holds true to how its played out over the last 10-15 years then I would expect that the value initially declines in the 0-5 year mark - call it $10K worst case over that time. The value then continues to very slowly decline to reaching a plateau from 10-20 years - it reaches its floor around 20-25 years. Specialist cars are usually inflating at the inflation rate (or more if really collectible) by their 25 year age mark. Caterhams that are early 2000s are bringing $30-40K today 20 years on - depending on condition, spec level, etc. They were were being sold at $40-50K+ original price then. Your $10-15K value loss/depreciation estimate is fairly good. However, you are quoting nominal prices. Over time the real value (i.e. inflation adjusted) has declined. So a dollar today will be worth roughly 15-20% less 10 years from now than it is today. Add that to your nominal depreciation for a true value check. So its not an investment but it is a fairly decent proposition in having automotive fun with far less of a dent to the wallet than say buying a new sports car like a Miata or Nissan or Toyota or BMW. Keeps it in a better proportion. The two wild cards in all of this are: 1) politicians talking about phasing out internal combustion. It is possible with their stupid logic that they jack up emissions testing retroactively and then we end up with what is known as "stranded assets" I doubt it but its possible. But you should still be able to use a Caterham on track. 2) The aging out of the population. We tend to desire the cars of our early teenage years. Roll forward to when us folks have money to acquire these cars - usually at the 20-25 year mark, thats when the cars start to boom in value. Pre-war cars used to bring top dollars but they do not now as their population has mostly aged out. You are starting to see relative declines in 1950s-60s car values now but it will take a lot of time for the boomers to roll off. You are also seeing the rise in values of 1980s-90s classics as that population cohort ages into their prime. Most people who got into se7ens have some recollection of the Lotus seven who are an aging cohort. The later folks got hooked some other way. Is the population of se7en buyers aging out in net head count or holding static? Gut feel with numbers tells me its aging out very slowly. Ask me again in 10 years! The other way to consider value - its cheaper than a divorce and about half the price of what you pay for a kitchen renovation in Manhattan and you get to put a smile on your face and keep you sanity. I sound like a Mastercard commercial eh?

He did - I asked about that after the article finished because I was curious to hear how bad their build was. They did pretty well to their credit.

I think this is a Europe only thing. Read between the lines in the press release - usual cute language that I am used to seeing. They have enough Duratecs for two or more years of orders. I expect the real reason for phase out is regulatory - need to meet a lower emissions standard that is being phased in at the end of this year in the EU. It will be interesting to see what the replacement powerplant is for Europe as that will preview what the civilized world gets eventually in their Caterhams.

Breakages are fairly common. Usual places that would stock something like that are Dave Bean, Moss Motors, Burton Power. A whole bunch appeared on Ebay. A quick google turned up this link: https://www.bearingkits.co.uk/TYPE-9-GEARBOX-SPEEDO-DRIVE-GEAR-24-TEETH/809.htm#gsc.tab=0

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You are are the only Steel Bros car owner on USA7s. I am aware of one other Steel Bros car in the US but thats because it came up for auction once years ago - I don't know the owner. There is some specific information on S4 cars in the technical library on this site: Assembly manual Design Analysis From distant recollection (like 30 years ago), the Steel Bros wiring harness is different to the Lotus S4 as it was developed locally in NZ. There is some generic Lucas electrical detail in the library that may be of use since most components will likely be Lucas as NZ mostly imported from the UK at that time as it had no manufacturing base - find it by going top left menu bar BROWSE -> DOWNLOADS and then looking under electrical. To answer your earlier question on parts sourcing - some ideas: There is not going to be a single source supplier anywhere - be ready to use some creative thinking. Much of the parts were common with many of the mainstream Lotus cars of the time. Trying to do a match of those parts to another Lotus model through somewhere like RD Enterprises in PA will solve most suspension, drive train, electrical component items. A lot of Steel Bros S4s went to Australia. A lot stayed in NZ. Plugging into with a NZ or an Australian Lotus forum to find those other owners will connect you to people who have solved the problems you are trying to solve. Some discussion on Steel Bros has come up on an NZ based forum that I follow called Roaring Season. Its been useful for tracking down the history on two of my (non-Lotus cars over the years. A quick site search pulled up this link: http://www.theroaringseason.com/showthread.php?414-Widebody-S4-Lotus-Seven/page6 While it is dated (2012 is a long time ago), you may be able to reach out to some of the participants on that thread. One contributor (Binzy1) said he owned a Steel Bros car. There may be more information on that forum for Steel Bros with a bit of searching.

A Steel Bros S4 was the first se7en I ever drove back when I lived in Australia. I think they were better made than the S4's that came out of the UK. Great back story to this car - very worthy project.

It would be possible to do with a car that is greater than 25 years old. Consider getting some form of breakdown cover though.

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Yes that is right. The newer one is too big but so is the older pre-2016 version. The only thing that fits the tunnel is the old Miata 5 speed. Lots have tried as it would be a brilliant solution otherwise. Easy to mate to the Duratec which is a Mazda engine anyway.

I just noticed you are Fort Collins. One of my cars is there. Did you move from CA? Retirement I guess?