360S in Charleston(ish)

[Austin David]

Jimmy started a thread about his 310R in Atlanta; I was right behind him on the truck, with my 360S.  I'm hoping my build is relatively sane, but I think every single checkbox in the order form leads to a departure from the instructions... and I checked a lot of boxes.

 

So far I've fit the front suspension and headlight supports.  Lighting will come much later.  At Josh's recommendation I'm doing the rear end next, and will slide the trans onto the propshaft (instead of the engine-first approach in the book).

 

Intersting bits:

 

my upper wish / FARB cups had weld in the groove for the dust cover, and in the corner.  Same as https://caterham420detailedbuildblog.co.uk/2019/12/02/front-anti-roll-bar/.  On discussion with Josh, I cleaned up the weld myself with a dremel and square diamond file, painted it up.  This was present on both sides.  I also had to clean out the powder coat in both cups and buff down the FARB ends (plastic balls) with 400# sandpaper.

 

The heater appears identical to the RHD version, but the switch is mounted on the left side.  Cable LOOKS long enough to mount the valve in the RHD orientation, but bend the cable around behind the battery.  I won't know for sure until I mount the engine and plumb it up.

 

For the diff, I made a long tapered 1/2" 'alignment tool' for the hanger.  This made it MUCH easier to seat the spacers and align the top bolt.  The forward two are still in progress.

 

I plan to try and refit a dry sump, mostly for ground clearance.  I'm still not sure what to expect there, it's a Pace kit.  I assume there will be some creativity involved.

 

Finally: I plan to (a) defeat the scorpion key thing and generally remove the key, and (b) run electric heat in the seats.  I haven't really worked on either yet.  Would love any tips or hints, if anyone else has tried these.

[Croc]

15 hours ago, Austin David said:

 I'm hoping my build is relatively sane, but I think every single checkbox in the order form leads to a departure from the instructions... and I checked a lot of boxes.

 

 

I am laughing at this comment.  Its just so true.  Just wait until you find out what is missing from your kit in terms of parts!  

 

Scorpion key?  Thats the immobilizer thingy?  You could do what everyone else does and just tie the fob to the steering column and forget about it.  Have not seen mine since 2010 but I think it is still there.  

 

Pace dry sumps are good - you should not have any issues there.  

 

Enjoy your build!

[Austin David]

Thank you for jynxing my build   Fortunately Josh seems to be on the ball, if not at least ultra responsive.  Touch wood, I have mostly just had to root through every box 5x to find stuff... 

[KnifeySpoony]

That's typical. You'll be convinced you're missing something, only to find it in with other completely unrelated parts for some reason....

[Austin David]

Catching up on some one-off issues as I progress in the build:

 

the rear brake pipe wasn't aligned with the hole in the aluminium brace under the boot.  The Ikea manual shows 3 holes: one grommeted for the fuel line, one open, and a 3rd for the brake pipe.  All on the RHS close to the shock tower.  On my car there was no 3rd (inboard) hole.  The center / unused hole was exactly the right size, but about 3" away from where I needed it.  I had to make a 3/8" pass-through for the brake hose to meet the rear hard line.

 

In another thread I noted the question about "S" vs. "R" mount locations for the radius arm.  My kit has the sport suspension, I use the lower "R" location.  Apparently "S" is slightly more comfortable and may also leave some roll steer. 

[Austin David]

Again, more catchup.  Before I started, Josh recommended this slightly out-of-order sequence:

front suspension,

Handbrake cable (keep lever loose for now)

Propshaft

Diff (biiiig job)

Propshaft bolts

Rollover bar bolts (also can be difficult: start em all loose and use pin punches to get holes to line up

Dedion tube,

Rear suspension 

Rear uprights and calipers <-- I am here

Rear ARB 

Speedo sensor

 

then engine/trans, and interior.

 

based on past experience, the radiator will be darned near last.  It's fragile and poking out the front, begging to get kneed or worse.  Wings after, for the same reason.

 

To do it again, I'd probably do the front suspension later in the build, just because it makes the workspace smaller (the front wing brackets poke out pretty far).

[Austin David]

Speed sensor: both manuals (2015 and Ikea 2.0) aren't good.  There's a random black plastic bolt + nut in an unmarked bag; the sensor goes through this bolt, then into the rear bracket as pictured. 

A better set of photos: 

• https://caterham420detailedbuildblog.co.uk/2020/01/25/speed-sensor
• https://310build.com/speedo-rear-finish/

The "earth mod" wire was in with rear suspension stuff; the plastic bolt/nut was in a sealed pack with a few other assorted things.  Instructions are simple enough, once you find them.  I did not drill & rivet a new tie bracket, I had plenty of room to line stuff up with existing ties, and still leave slack for suspension travel.

 

 

[Austin David]

Josh recommended building the rear end before mounting the engine.  I am guessing this is based on a bunch of experience and probably ~ 1w build times.  IF you're gonna do that, I would recommend draining the transmission first.  The engine/trans are too long to get into position before mating to the propshaft, which means they'll still be kinda porpoised in place, if aiming down a little.  Which means you'll lose some fluid, unless you're WAY faster than a couple first-timers in SC.  if you have to top it up anyway, you may as well drain it to save fluid (or at least save your floor and a half-dozen rags), then just refill it later.  For someone in less a hurry I don't know that there's a huge advantage to this sequence, vs. mounting the engine first.  Certainly by doing the engine first, you leave the plug in until it's all horizontal.

 

Otherwise it went OK.  Per the 420 blog I did line the tunnel with cardboard, and I'm glad I did.  I would have left off the starter next time, it doesn't get a lot of room clearing the brake master.  I used two ratchet straps to help keep the motor aligned (one for keeping the trans up, one for controlling twist).  I probably didn't really need either one, in retrospect.  More important than those is the leveler, which kept the motor horizontal.

 

Also this is absolutely a 2-person job, and even better with a 3rd -- someone on the hoist, someone on the propshaft, and a runner / guide making sure nothing's getting poked.

 

The trans mount is actually fairly easy to get to from the top, provided the bolts are downward-facing (IVA spec, but counter to the 2.1 instructions).  The nuts are still higher than the mount itself, so they don't create any new obstruction.  A long T-handle / ball end 6mm is plenty of room to secure all 4 while tightening from the bottom.  I have no idea how I would have done this bottom-up, unless I'd mounted the bracket before the transmission.  Bolts+washers first, then install the motor, then (while trans is supported on a jack) install the bracket.

 

The whole process took about 2-2.5 hours with two unpracticed hands. 

 

Edited February 20, 2022 by Austin David

[KnifeySpoony]

23 hours ago, Austin David said:

 

The "earth mod" wire was in with rear suspension stuff;

 

 

 

 Interesting, my kit delivered 2021 did not have the earth mod.

 

2 hours ago, Austin David said:

 IF you're gonna do that, I would recommend draining the diff first. 

 

Also interesting, as my diff came dry.

[Austin David]

Sorry, I meant transmission.  My diff was also dry, but trans was shipped wet.

 

The "earth mod" extra was just a bit of black wire with a ring terminal one one end and the correct pin and seal on the other.  Without that it would still be a very easy mod, but would involve cutting the speedo side ground wire and tieing that to the chassis.  

[Austin David]

I'm getting REALLY curious whether I got a weird chassis because I ordered slightly weird (360S apparently not common)?  Or because it was built during the pandemic which kinda made everything weird, including, like, "let's just frankenstein this together".

 

More insanity: the plumbing is different from the book, which took some back-n-forth with Josh and Caterham to sort out.  Even better, I don't actually have all the parts to make the new plumbing.  Also my chassis earth/ground point is on the RHS, not the LHS?  Fortunately I was shipped what I assume are cables to accommodate either orientation?  Oh and I apparently have older-style "two brown wires" for the battery loom and not the documented / newer style of "red B/S under the tunnel."  And I'm also missing the parts to finish that off, but those were easily acquired locally.

 

Here's what I got which fit correctly on the first try, as documented or recorded in other blogs/builds:

- lower heater hose.  Perfect fit. VERY nice hose.

- upper heater hose.  Will need to be trimmed.  This is a VERY thick EPDM hose, has caused problems elsewhere.  The shape is right though, I'll figure it out

- Bulk 5/16 hose for water rail return -> overflow tank.  Fits exactly like in the book and the fittings match the hose.  Even after I sacrificed some of it to protect the clutch hose.

 

Electrical:

- Long black cable to connect to the RHS chassis earth; routed above the tunnel with the other clips.  As others have noted, a few well-placed washers and some cleaning of paint.

- Added a long red starter cable, will connect batt + to starter.  My two browns go on the starter, per 2015 manual.

- cooling (heater bypass) pluming is new.  I'm still figuring out parts.   I'll follow up when I get it sorted out -- the actual routing is mostly what's in the v2 Ikea manual, if you make no assumptions about actual materials supplied.

 

Here's the challenge: the engine points (the two modine ports, the water rail, and the thermostat port) are all 3/4".  The tee provided is 3/4".  The heater, valves, submarine, and expansion tank are all 5/8".  With a lot of patience and lubrication and dirty talk the 5/8 can fit on those 3/4 barbs, but not vice-versa.  I'm not super excited about this.

 

The routing is approximately: 

3/4 rail -> 5/8 submarine -> 5/8 submarine -> 5/8 heater valve

5/8 heater valve -> 5/8 heater core (upper)

5/8 heater core (lower) -> 5/8 heater valve

5/8 heater valve -> 3/4 oil filter modine

3/4 oil filter modine -> 3/4 tee 

3/4 tee -> 3/4 termostat

3/4 tee -> 5/8 expansion tank.

 

One side of the submarine is a sharp u-bend; an LS heater bypass fits REALLY well.  However, my loom wires for the temp sensor are way, way too short.  I don't think I could have made them work correctly even if I did have the "hockey stick" hose.  Which I did not.  I made up two cables to clip onto the heater and sub, with spades to mate properly with the wires on the engine loom.  Sub will lurk under the water rail without otherwise interfering.

 

The two modines need 3/4 with a short right angle, and ideally a longish section of 5/8.  I think Caterham's updated guidance involves splicing up some shorter tubes, and I assume making the 5/8 fit over all the 3/4 engine-side fittings.  If that's truly the case, I figure a 5/8 tee might be a better idea?

 

My heater valve hole was actually drilled in the LHS where it sort of belongs.  Would be above my left knee.  The cable appears long enough to work correctly from there, with the valve in the standard orientation.  I was able to double it over between the battery and heater, under the airbox and over the brake/clutch overflow lines.  It looks like I can correctly open/close with pull/push.  I've shot the cable full of teflon, as it's getting close to the min bend radius.

 

Other news: I eyeballed my seats.  I got "signature" interior (another one of those checkbox-departures from the norm) but I think the seats are normal street / stock seats.  The bottom is molded and glued, but the top is more reasonably held together with zip ties.  I think I will be able to slip some heaters in there, at least for lower back.  Better than nothing!  I'm also likely to fit a Stiebel horn; without a dry sump tank up front I have a lot of room for it.

 

[kayentaskier]

As Croc mentioned in a separate post, a heated jacket may be a better solution than heated seats, and certainly makes for an easier installation.

 

For example: https://www.thewarmingstore.com/keis-j501-premium-heated-jacket.html?utm_content=ps-nonbrand&gclid=CjwKCAiAvOeQBhBkEiwAxutUVIWEZYnIBToiwR1sFRgsGK6XlPQ8CpVFUsmJ7Kqcd8VgOpQGyIgbeRoCiCoQAvD_BwE

[UglyFast]

Lol I ordered heated seats. Now y'all tell me!  Lololol

[JohnCh]

I went with heated seats too.  I figure they are good for those days when I'm torn between wearing a light jacket and risk being too warm or wearing just a shirt and wishing I had worn the jacket. 

 

-John

[Austin David]

3 hours ago, UglyFast said:

Lol I ordered heated seats. Now y'all tell me!  Lololol

What did you order?  If you live basically not-in-FL you want heaters.

 

I've used heated gear on motorcycles, and it is EXCELLENT, but also pretty short-lived.  I never really found anything that worked for more than 1-2 seasons, and plugging in (and unplugging) is pretty annoying.

 

I installed heaters in an old MX5 a couple winters ago and it is amazing.  Not a single solution, but along with better gear, tonneau cover, and floor heat, it's pretty cozy year-round.

[UglyFast]

14 hours ago, Austin David said:

What did you order?  If you live basically not-in-FL you want heaters.

 

I've used heated gear on motorcycles, and it is EXCELLENT, but also pretty short-lived.  I never really found anything that worked for more than 1-2 seasons, and plugging in (and unplugging) is pretty annoying.

 

I installed heaters in an old MX5 a couple winters ago and it is amazing.  Not a single solution, but along with better gear, tonneau cover, and floor heat, it's pretty cozy year-round.

I ordered a CSR.  Comes with padded leather "touring" type seats. I optioned the heated carbon along with a bunch of other track-ish gear. Also going to get another set of seats, but need to wait and see my actual floors before I do. I'm in the bottom end of the Blue Ridge Mountains, so we get very cool mornings and evenings in fall. I figure between the footwell heater, transmission tunnel heat, heated seats and a good jacket I can mayyyybe have a full 3 season car. Lol, we'll see. Either way, I'ma be sideways on the Blue Ridge Parkway in summers! 

[Croc]

20 hours ago, Austin David said:

Or because it was built during the pandemic which kinda made everything weird, including, like, "let's just frankenstein this together".

 

 

This is what I think happened.  The production process was massively disrupted and they had staffing issues so probably untrained people doing things they don't normally do. Your case is not the only one I am aware of.  Quite a few people have been dealing with assembly issues from kit production faults.  

 

Some of the things you have described make me wonder if you got a partial Sigma kit?  

 

Not sure what seats you got but if they are the S-type by Oxted Trimming (Thundersports.co.uk) I have an article somewhere on how to take them apart to refurbish which might assist you for putting in a heating pad.  Need to find it once I return home this week.  

[Austin David]

2 hours ago, UglyFast said:

I'm in the bottom end of the Blue Ridge Mountains, so we get very cool mornings and evenings in fall. I figure between the footwell heater, transmission tunnel heat, heated seats and a good jacket I can mayyyybe have a full 3 season car. Lol, we'll see. Either way, I'ma be sideways on the Blue Ridge Parkway in summers! 

I have definitely seen ice on the ground in Blowing Rock in April.  That's actually my reasoning for not using R compound tyres...  BRP is pretty awesome tho.  I'll definitely reach out when I'm headed up there next.

 

I think you've got a good case for 3.75 seasons tho with all that extra crap.  They're not easy to find, but fleece-lined pants make a huge difference too.

[Austin David]

2 hours ago, Croc said:

Some of the things you have described make me wonder if you got a partial Sigma kit?  

Could be.  This is the closest I've been to a 7 built in the 21s century so I don't have a good basis for comparison.  The dash (under it) clearly has both RHS and LHS steering mounts, and the pedal boxes are symmetric on both sides, so I assume that's just designed in.  I don't know why the ground strap is on the RHS, that doesn't make sense to me at all.  Mixed-up hoses is weird but could just be a picking issue.  I am more confused by the scattered 5/8 and 3/4 stuff, with no obvious plan to adapt.  Unless there ARE adapters and I didn't get any?  Josh indicated there is a change in design and I might be kinda halfway between the old + new?

 

I spent some time with boiling water fitting 5/8 hose on the 3/4 tee.  I won't be doing that twice, and definitely won't be trying to snug any 5/8 on the 4 ports for the engine.  For now I think I'll just raid every local parts store for their adapters to make it work.  If it irritates me enough I think I could have semi-custom silicone hoses made for like $250 (WAG).

 

2 hours ago, Croc said:

 

Not sure what seats you got but if they are the S-type by Oxted Trimming (Thundersports.co.uk) I have an article somewhere on how to take them apart to refurbish which might assist you for putting in a heating pad.  Need to find it once I return home this week.  

 

I'd love to see that, thanks.  These look (to my SUPER INEXPERIENCED eye) like "stock" Caterham seats, just a different color.  The bottom lifts out of the frame and is leather wrapped around and glued to a molded base.   They're very light.  I THINK I could cut through the glue and repair it, but I want some miles in them before I start doing anything destructive.  The back is zip-tied to the frame, as opposed to hog rings -- no glue in evidence, so it looks like a better candidate for a heater insert.

[UglyFast]

3 hours ago, Austin David said:

I have definitely seen ice on the ground in Blowing Rock in April.  That's actually my reasoning for not using R compound tyres...  BRP is pretty awesome tho.  I'll definitely reach out when I'm headed up there next.

 

I think you've got a good case for 3.75 seasons tho with all that extra crap.  They're not easy to find, but fleece-lined pants make a huge difference too.

Lol I rock Fjallraven fleece lines pants for the win!