“Barn find” Restoration Project

[Rob J.]

28 minutes ago, ashyers said:

The lock is standard. It's sold by these guys:

 

https://www.gorilla-auto.com/cap-locks-cap-screws

 

I purchased a set for some 16x7 wheels to get a key since the original owner lost the key.

Thank you! I just sent them a message. 

[IamScotticus]

Rob, learn more about 7s before any lofty dreams of high horsepower.  Step 1 is return to a runner with same plant.  You will find <200hp is plenty for this light a car.  If you start a new project having to re-engineer everything, it will languish for years and no cost benefit.

 

I would take the car to a caterham specialist or engine/race prep specialist to evaluate the state of things.

Especially the transmission.

You can get a replacement frame from Arch.

Those are "Prisoner" wheels.

Edited February 25, 2022 by IamScotticus

[TMRL7]

I agree with @IamScotticus.    

[Rob J.]

1 hour ago, IamScotticus said:

Rob, learn more about 7s before any lofty dreams of high horsepower.  Step 1 is return to a runner with same plant.  You will find <200hp is plenty for this light a car.  If you start a new project having to re-engineer everything, it will languish for years and no cost benefit.

 

I would take the car to a caterham specialist or engine/race prep specialist to evaluate the state of things.

Especially the transmission.

You can get a replacement frame from Arch.

Those are "Prisoner" wheels.

Appreciate the advice. I’ve reached out to some restoration and car specialists in my area to start lining up options. In the meantime, the cleaning continues and Josh is helping me pick up parts I know it needs right off the bat.

[Vovchandr]

50 minutes ago, Rob J. said:

Appreciate the advice. I’ve reached out to some restoration and car specialists in my area to start lining up options. In the meantime, the cleaning continues and Josh is helping me pick up parts I know it needs right off the bat.

 

Swapping over to a modern platform will be an overwhelming amount of work. It might seem like "well I'm already doing the same work to fix this one" but no, it's almost monumentally more work for a gain that can be achieved on existing platform with less work and likely less money.

 

Our choices in US are Zetecs until mid early 2000's (like you and I have) and Duratecs which came later and are a more robust platform overall.

 

Duratec swap would require an obvious Duratec (likely $2k+), new mounts, new wiring harness, cut a new hole in existing side skin on the right, new exhaust to go on the right, either replace the side skin on the left or just leave it as a hole, new cooling system routing etc for starters. 

 

For Zetecs your options are what you have now (I believe it's a non SVT Zetec), or swapping to an SVT or building/force induction on the Zetec you have now.

 

After much reading from the gurus, SVT is a better motor stock for stock (~170hp, vs ~130hp) and has a Coworth head, however minor common changes to a stock Zetec make it essentially an SVT comparable motor (they are both Zetecs but are totally differently built motors). Stock Zetec 130hp is chocked by stock exhaust (Cats have a more free flowing exhaust), chocked by stock intake (ITB's are a common swap like I have) and head/cam work with a tune to give it a claimed "200hp" selling figure on the Zetec as advertised as a package. 

 

If you want more than "200hp" (crank) you'll either need to go for a complete build (like another member is going for here now from Raceline) or go forced induction (Both Turbo and Supercharging has been done with relative ease on the SV platform). 

 

I personally battled with the same decision and will currently long term be trying to shoe horn a Rotrex type supercharger into my Zetec S3. Roots type blowers have never been made fit (to my knowledge) on an S3 but there has been success on SV's. (I'm literally 1/4 in or so short from fitting one of the superchargers I have on hand).

 

 

As other advice has been given here, test your motor as it is now. Confirm whether it's worth saving (good compression etc) or whether you just need another Zetec. Some of these motors can be found for $500 or even less and would be an easy direct swap that can put you back on the road quicker.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by Vovchandr

[Rob J.]

7 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

 

Swapping over to a modern platform will be an overwhelming amount of work. It might seem like "well I'm already doing the same work to fix this one" but no, it's almost monumentally more work for a gain that can be achieved on existing platform with less work and likely less money.

 

Our choices in US are Zetecs until mid early 2000's (like you and I have) and Duratecs which came later and are a more robust platform overall.

 

Duratec swap would require an obvious Duratec (likely $2k+), new mounts, new wiring harness, cut a new hole in existing side skin on the right, new exhaust to go on the right, either replace the side skin on the left or just leave it as a hole, new cooling system routing etc for starters. 

 

For Zetecs your options are what you have now (I believe it's a non SVT Zetec), or swapping to an SVT or building/force induction on the Zetec you have now.

 

After much reading from the gurus, SVT is a better motor stock for stock (~170hp, vs ~130hp) and has a Coworth head, however minor common changes to a stock Zetec make it essentially an SVT comparable motor (they are both Zetecs but are totally differently built motors). Stock Zetec 130hp is chocked by stock exhaust (Cats have a more free flowing exhaust), chocked by stock intake (ITB's are a common swap like I have) and head/cam work with a tune to give it a claimed "200hp" selling figure on the Zetec as advertised as a package. 

 

If you want more than "200hp" (crank) you'll either need to go for a complete build (like another member is going for here now from Raceline) or go forced induction (Both Turbo and Supercharging has been done with relative ease on the SV platform). 

 

I personally battled with the same decision and will currently long term be trying to shoe horn a Rotrex type supercharger into my Zetec S3. Roots type blowers have never been made fit (to my knowledge) on an S3 but there has been success on SV's. (I'm literally 1/4 in or so short from fitting one of the superchargers I have on hand).

 

 

As other advice has been given here, test your motor as it is now. Confirm whether it's worth saving (good compression etc) or whether you just need another Zetec. Some of these motors can be found for $500 or even less and would be an easy direct swap that can put you back on the road quicker.

 

 

 

 

This is really helpful information. I really appreciate the insight. I’m one of those that likes to do things once, especially if I’m starting from a point where replacement needs to happen. I know that Ford used a forced induction 2.0L in the modern Focus ST. Wonder if that would be a close fit! (Kidding - kind of). 

[Rob J.]

Update - I was able to remove the center cap locks! After letting them sit for 2 days after being sprayed with wd-40, I was able to gently wedge a flat head screwdriver in and they easily backed out. Wheels off tomorrow to see if I can assess the frozen brakes and potentially the parking brake (which isn’t working either). 

[SENC]

10 hours ago, Rob J. said:

Unfortunately, this is way outside of my knowledge base and comfort level. Not to mention, I have zero clue how to do any of the things you've mentioned. I don't know how to assess the current condition of the ECU, do a leak down test, or pull a motor without making a mess of things. I'd be afraid of taking things apart and then not knowing how to put them back together. Although, I have a gut feeling that the engine isn't salvageable anyway so that might not even matter.

 

If the engine isn't salvageable, I would have some decisions to make. I'm not sure that I'd want to replace it with the same motor if I have go down that road despite it being the cheapest option. Given the motors currently used by Caterham, I'd much rather upgrade to something more modern and powerful. I'm sure 175hp does very well in such a small car and admittedly, I've never ridden in one. But, when my daily vehicle has 750hp, it's kind of in the back of my mind to upgrade. Nevertheless, I think that's a decision to make later on when I get to the bridge. For now, I'm just cleaning away and trying to find that darn center cap key! 

Rob - if you're thinking the odds are you'll have to replace, you have nothing to lose and a great learning opportunity.  Part of the beauty of these cars is their relative simplicity, and what a great chance to learn how to fully disassemble without any real risk of breaking anything or not getting it back together.  It seems the worst case scenario is you learn all the bits and parts - best case is you learn how to rebuild yourself and save the cost of a new engine!

 

I pulled my first engine myself (69 Elan) 5 years ago for the purpose of rebuilding my gearbox - also a first.  That gave me the confidence to pull my Seven engine and gearbox to investigate and ultimately rebuild both.  Since I'd never done a leakdown test much less rebuilt an engine, I found a local mechanic with experience in vintage race cars and hired him to come over a few evenings to help me test and with disassembly and for guidance on reassembly.  It may have cost me a few hundred bucks for 5-6 hours of time over a few months - and the education I got was worth much more.  I'm a lo g way from having any real expertise, but now comfortable enough to do a lot more on my Seven and Elan than I'd have ever guessed I'd be.  What do you have to lose?

[Rob J.]

19 minutes ago, SENC said:

Rob - if you're thinking the odds are you'll have to replace, you have nothing to lose and a great learning opportunity.  Part of the beauty of these cars is their relative simplicity, and what a great chance to learn how to fully disassemble without any real risk of breaking anything or not getting it back together.  It seems the worst case scenario is you learn all the bits and parts - best case is you learn how to rebuild yourself and save the cost of a new engine!

 

I pulled my first engine myself (69 Elan) 5 years ago for the purpose of rebuilding my gearbox - also a first.  That gave me the confidence to pull my Seven engine and gearbox to investigate and ultimately rebuild both.  Since I'd never done a leakdown test much less rebuilt an engine, I found a local mechanic with experience in vintage race cars and hired him to come over a few evenings to help me test and with disassembly and for guidance on reassembly.  It may have cost me a few hundred bucks for 5-6 hours of time over a few months - and the education I got was worth much more.  I'm a lo g way from having any real expertise, but now comfortable enough to do a lot more on my Seven and Elan than I'd have ever guessed I'd be.  What do you have to lose?

It’s funny you mention that because I’ve also though about a mobile mechanic stopping by to help. I think you’re right though - it’s a great chance to learn a lot. After I get the brakes in good working order and the rest cleaned, I’ll turn my attention to the major parts. Ultimately, you’re right. If I don’t think it’s salvageable, there’s really no harm in taking it apart! 

[IamScotticus]

Who is this?  Garage ghost?

[Croc]

On 2/25/2022 at 4:02 AM, Rob J. said:

I have a gut feeling that the engine isn't salvageable anyway so that might not even matter.

 

Then it may be worth getting a mechanic to assess it in position and possibly fire it up (but not drive it).  That allows you to know now as part of the overall condition assessment.  

 

Any project like this needs a well laid out plan.  If you don't then scope creep happens and you spend a lot more money than you originally planned to.   To do a plan you need to thoroughly assess where it is and what you need/want to do to bring it back to the final vision you have for it.  All of my projects (ok I admit...money pits in certain cases) have a written plan outlining what needs to be done to get it to the final state I want.  You are still properly assessing the state of it (which is good) and still trying to work out where to go with it (which is also good). 

 

A key next step is to find the right specialists to help fill in what skills you know you don't have.  You have identified early that is going to be a factor you are off doing it - so all good there.

 

 

 

@ashyers  Nice find on the lock nuts!  Thumbs up.

[Rob J.]

Update - I was able to get a new battery to at least see if the electronics would work. Obviously I made no attempt beyond just assessing what was working. So far, only a taillight is out so that’s a pretty good. With that… I got a look at the odometer. Are you all ready?

 

98 miles. Looks like he bought it, drove it home, parked it, and left it. 

[locost7018]

this could be the deal of the century!!!!!! Russ

ps: Or your worst nightmare if the motor, trans, and frame are toast.

[Rob J.]

16 minutes ago, locost7018 said:

this could be the deal of the century!!!!!! Russ

ps: Or your worst nightmare if the motor, trans, and frame are toast.

Frame looks to be in pretty good shape. No idea about the motor or trans though. I’ll figure those out later when I can get some help from someone with more experience.

[Vovchandr]

55 minutes ago, Rob J. said:

Update - I was able to get a new battery to at least see if the electronics would work. Obviously I made no attempt beyond just assessing what was working. So far, only a taillight is out so that’s a pretty good. With that… I got a look at the odometer. Are you all ready?

 

98 miles. Looks like he bought it, drove it home, parked it, and left it. 

 

That's crazy! Positive it's not a trip setting?

 

Also want to make sure you don't consider driving anywhere without replacing those tires.

 

In our light cars it's hard to get good grip so tires are very important.

 

I'm giving a warning because it's very easy to just go by tread if he never drove it and disregard their condition/age which would essentially "brick" the tires after the oil escapes over time. These tires are essentially "expired".

 

I also say that from experience that if you don't do it ahead of time, it will be very easy to "just take it around the block" to test the old ones. Then you'll feel comfortable in the fact that you can take it around on a bigger ride and next think you know you get comfortable with them and they let go at the worst possible time and all that hard work restoring will turn into a bigger restoration project and having to deal with insurance for an obscure car which can be a nightmare. 

 

My $.02

Edited February 26, 2022 by Vovchandr

[Rob J.]

28 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

 

That's crazy! Positive it's not a trip setting?

 

Also want to make sure you don't consider driving anywhere without replacing those tires.

 

In our light cars it's hard to get good grip so tires are very important.

 

I'm giving a warning because it's very easy to just go by tread if he never drove it and disregard their condition/age which would essentially "brick" the tires after the oil escapes over time. These tires are essentially "expired".

 

I also say that from experience that if you don't do it ahead of time, it will be very easy to "just take it around the block" to test the old ones. Then you'll feel comfortable in the fact that you can take it around on a bigger ride and next think you know you get comfortable with them and they let go at the worst possible time and all that hard work restoring will turn into a bigger restoration project and having to deal with insurance for an obscure car which can be a nightmare. 

 

My $.02

Yep! The trip setting was 64 miles. I couldn’t believe it. 
 

And totally agree. The tires obviously look brand new, but they were sitting on very soft ground for a long time. I’d feel better about just replacing them from the beginning and not having that worry in my head. I’ll start looking around for some replacements.

[Croc]

I could be snarky and say since the gauges are made by Caerbont, I would assume they never worked from new.  It is pretty common for them to fail.  Plus if the Hall Effect sensor was never working properly (fairly common) then mileage would never be recorded. 

 

For tires, you may first want to consider if you want to stay with 16 inch "wagon wheels".  The driving experience gets much much better as you drop down wheel size.  Only problem with 13 inch wheels is slightly lower ground clearance.  Smaller rotating unsprung mass, thicker sidewalls on the tires improves responsiveness, handling and ride quality.  Then again you might prefer the looks of the current wheels and they may be in good condition to keep.  

[Rob J.]

25 minutes ago, Croc said:

I could be snarky and say since the gauges are made by Caerbont, I would assume they never worked from new.  It is pretty common for them to fail.  Plus if the Hall Effect sensor was never working properly (fairly common) then mileage would never be recorded. 

 

For tires, you may first want to consider if you want to stay with 16 inch "wagon wheels".  The driving experience gets much much better as you drop down wheel size.  Only problem with 13 inch wheels is slightly lower ground clearance.  Smaller rotating unsprung mass, thicker sidewalls on the tires improves responsiveness, handling and ride quality.  Then again you might prefer the looks of the current wheels and they may be in good condition to keep.  

Wheels are on my radar once I get the car back on the road for sure. I've seen some really great options out there. I'll just have to decide how much I like these and get a feel for the ride quality once it's drivable. I've heard a lot of great things about going down to 13", so that's definitely a possibility in the future. I wouldn't mind a better ride quality in general. But then again, I've also never even ridden in one so I have no basis for comparison yet. 

[IamScotticus]

Ride quality???

LMAO

naw, man. you're in the USA where things called speed bumps exist.  Your concern is grounding.  

I run on 185 / 70 R13 ,20psi with soft suspension.

If you live in an area with really nice smooth roads, you can set up more sporty.

[Vovchandr]

Any updates? @Rob J.