7 Owners in the Bay Area / San Jose?

[BlakeJ]

6 hours ago, hahuang65 said:

 

You'd recommend the 2 pot brakes, even for on-track usage?

 

Also what really is the difference between the 360R and the 420R? Is it just the cams, dry sump and ECU tune? Everything else is the same (including cosmetically)? I'm trying to figure out if I should just go down to the 360R and see if enough car for me, and upgrade the performance if I really wanted to?

My 2 cents:

When I was ordering my kit in late 2016, I found myself thinking along the same lines... order the 360, and later upgrade to 420 spec if I desired (which, ultimately, I did). Very happy with that decision, as the lower power level allowed me to learn the car well, while still being a REALLY quick road car, and more than capable on track. 

After 3 yrs, I upgraded and it was (and is) a real thrill.  Mid range and top end are quite strong now.  It's bonkers on the street, and just right at the track.

I selected the dry sump from factory, as I knew track sessions would be happening, and as others have noted, the ground clearance is appreciated.  

I don't think you can go wrong - both the 360 and 420 provide spectacular entertainment!

Edited October 5, 2022 by BlakeJ

[hahuang65]

@BlakeJ appreciate your input! It's a real dilemma! 

[JohnCh]

4 hours ago, BlakeJ said:

When I was ordering my kit in late 2016, I found myself thinking along the same lines... order the 360, and later upgrade to 420 spec if I desired (which, ultimately, I did).

 

@BlakeJ did you get the 420 upgrade parts through Caterham?  If so, were the valve springs part of the package?  How about ARP rod bolts?  I've read that the R400D (precursor to 420R) initially used those, but at some point, Caterham stopped that particular upgrade.  Not sure if that's true or just speculation.

 

Thanks,

John

[BlakeJ]

5 minutes ago, JohnCh said:

 

@BlakeJ did you get the 420 upgrade parts through Caterham?  If so, were the valve springs part of the package?  How about ARP rod bolts?  I've read that the R400D (precursor to 420R) initially used those, but at some point, Caterham stopped that particular upgrade.  Not sure if that's true or just speculation.

 

Thanks,

John

While the parts were Caterham, they were not purchased through Caterham, so I can't really speak to the question (the cams and associated valve springs were generously donated to me by another member).  Visually at least, the R400 valve springs appeared the same as those from the 360 factory units.  I don't know if Caterham includes uprated rod bolts in the 420 upgrade kit. 

[KnifeySpoony]

6 hours ago, Croc said:

 

  The overcooling effect is not as pronounced as you might expect

What oil temps are you seeing on the street?

[hahuang65]

5 hours ago, BlakeJ said:

It's bonkers on the street, and just right at the track.

Would you upgrade further? I've heard of what Josh from Rocky Mountain calls a "440"... Or even more? 

[BlakeJ]

6 minutes ago, hahuang65 said:

Would you upgrade further? I've heard of what Josh from Rocky Mountain calls a "440"... Or even more? 

I also did the roller barrel throttle bodies while I was at it. Fantastic! Some call it "420+" spec, which is what I think Josh is referring to. He got me the correct ECU map and it's great.

I am plenty satisfied for now;)

[hahuang65]

@BlakeJany thoughts on pushing it even further? I originally was trying to decide between the 620 and 420... And now I'm deciding between the 360 and the 420... What a rollercoaster. 

[BlakeJ]

Just now, hahuang65 said:

@BlakeJany thoughts on pushing it even further? I originally was trying to decide between the 620 and 420... And now I'm deciding between the 360 and the 420... What a rollercoaster. 

From what I hear, and I am certainly no authority on the matter, taking the stock Duratec much further than about 220hp requires major work and potential reliability concerns. But it's been done well and documented plenty (R500 spec). Proceed with caution, patience, guidance from a well-known Duratec engine builder, and the willingness to spend time and money on fine tuning/unforeseen issues.

[JohnCh]

The 420 cams' lift is at the clearance limit for the stock pistons.  Although you could theoretically remove and pocket the pistons, the more common approach when installing more aggressive cams is to upgrade rods and pistons, refresh the bearings, balance the bottom end, install ARP fasteners, etc.  Been there, done that with cams that are not quite as aggressive as the R500 cams and love the results, but yes, it was major work.

 

-John

[Croc]

18 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

What oil temps are you seeing on the street?

 

I am going to provide some context with water temps to allow you to better compare to your situation. 

 

Its my UK 420R - 2018 so likely identical to yours in spec 2L Duratec, 5 spd Miata box, dry sump, oil cooler out the lower front of the radiator.  SV so greater nose cone opening.  Mostly track usage but some back road blats.  Drawing from my recent trip so think Fall/Spring weather in the UK (say 65-70deg F days).

 

Engine temps in Celsius since that is how my UK 420R is calibrated.  Starting with water temps, my thermostat is 92degC.  Caterham started off using a 82degC thermostat then migrated to 92degC or a 102degC thermostat.  I run around 80-85 once engine up to temp.  Fan hardly ever kicks in unless I get into traffic and then temp is up around 90degC.  On track I am consistently around 90degC which is what I would expect with a 92degC thermostat. 

 

For oil temps, ideal range per Premier Power is an 80degC to 100degC.  I reference Premier Power as my car is stored with TFL in the same building as Premier Power and I have been chatting with them on a few of my visits (upgrades - guilty ).    On track I see 95-100degC, sometimes over.  For road I am around 75degC to 80degC but it will kick higher if I get into traffic.  Not ideal but not bad.  The other thing is the oil temp is a spot measure for the system so my road oil temp is likely in the lower end of the 80degC to 100degC range within the dry tank for road usage.  My temp measure is tapped off the engine and not off the dry sump tank which it ideally would be.  I do see water and oil temps move in sync on track so they definitely peg to each other which is why I feel comfortable the higher water temps will underpin oil temps via block warming.  

 

Premier Power did tell me they generally recommend blanking off the oil cooler if using primarily for road.  I can live with how I have it as the oil is still hot enough to work properly and I am mostly track focused on that car.  The problem is the oil temps can get to 120degC without the cooler on track on a hot day - so you need it for track time.  It is a compromise that I can live with.   

 

As I wrote this, an idea occurred to me - what water thermostat are you running?  Maybe upgrade to the 102degF one and lift the oil temps just enough at the same time?

 

 

[Croc]

23 hours ago, BlakeJ said:

I upgraded and it was (and is) a real thrill.  Mid range and top end are quite strong now.  It's bonkers on the street, and just right at the track.

 

I will say @BlakeJ is really quick in his new engine spec on track.  Lap times were dropping fast this last NJMP event.  Roller barrels make great sounds with the induction noise.  He was causing mischief with some cars who before would run away from him.  

 

 

 

[KnifeySpoony]

On 10/6/2022 at 2:54 AM, Croc said:

 

I am going to provide some context with water temps to allow you to better compare to your situation. 

 

Its my UK 420R - 2018 so likely identical to yours in spec 2L Duratec, 5 spd Miata box, dry sump, oil cooler out the lower front of the radiator.  SV so greater nose cone opening.  Mostly track usage but some back road blats.  Drawing from my recent trip so think Fall/Spring weather in the UK (say 65-70deg F days).

 

Engine temps in Celsius since that is how my UK 420R is calibrated.  Starting with water temps, my thermostat is 92degC.  Caterham started off using a 82degC thermostat then migrated to 92degC or a 102degC thermostat.  I run around 80-85 once engine up to temp.  Fan hardly ever kicks in unless I get into traffic and then temp is up around 90degC.  On track I am consistently around 90degC which is what I would expect with a 92degC thermostat. 

 

For oil temps, ideal range per Premier Power is an 80degC to 100degC.  I reference Premier Power as my car is stored with TFL in the same building as Premier Power and I have been chatting with them on a few of my visits (upgrades - guilty ).    On track I see 95-100degC, sometimes over.  For road I am around 75degC to 80degC but it will kick higher if I get into traffic.  Not ideal but not bad.  The other thing is the oil temp is a spot measure for the system so my road oil temp is likely in the lower end of the 80degC to 100degC range within the dry tank for road usage.  My temp measure is tapped off the engine and not off the dry sump tank which it ideally would be.  I do see water and oil temps move in sync on track so they definitely peg to each other which is why I feel comfortable the higher water temps will underpin oil temps via block warming.  

 

Premier Power did tell me they generally recommend blanking off the oil cooler if using primarily for road.  I can live with how I have it as the oil is still hot enough to work properly and I am mostly track focused on that car.  The problem is the oil temps can get to 120degC without the cooler on track on a hot day - so you need it for track time.  It is a compromise that I can live with.   

 

As I wrote this, an idea occurred to me - what water thermostat are you running?  Maybe upgrade to the 102degF one and lift the oil temps just enough at the same time?

 

 

Mine is a 2020/2021 build - not sure if you have the newer style "race" oil cooler or the older style that mounts in front of the water rad. That could be a factor. Also, I have the 420R "race" nose cone with extra opening for the oil cooler. This could be contributing as well. On cold morning drives to the track I block off the opening, which does bump up oil temps about 10deg F on the freeway. However, on a particular cold fall AM drive to Laguna I was seeing 108F steady state on the freeway at 70mph. That's COLD. Cold enough for me to fear for my engine. 2 days ago AM drive to track was seeing 125F on freeway in about 55deg ambient. These temps are in the oil tank, btw- I'm not sure of the delta before/after the cooler. I can only hope oil is 50deg hotter in the bearings.

 

I have read about people putting inline thermostats to the oil rad with little change in temps, so I abandoned that idea. My water temp runs rock solid at 197F when underway. Not sure which thermostat I have- it's the one that came fitted as standard.

 

The reality is I think the car is cooled for racing. And in particular, drafting. The 420R race cars (now called UK championship) run the exact same nosecone and cooler setup AFAIK. They have to run nose to tail and not overheat. This means that in any other situation, the car will be overcooled. I'm ok with that as I only drive my car on the street to/from the track and I'm ok with the compromise. However, for a pure street car, I think a oil/water (modine) style cooler is superior.

[sltous]

I have the modine oil/water cooler and I haven't had any oil or water temp problems on street or track but I'm a lot slower on track than KnifeySpoony.

[GalloIgnacio]

Here are some pictures from todays Lotus meet. Sorry it’s kind of off topic but I don’t know any other car guys to share them with! I emailed them to GG Lotus. Would’ve looked better with a 7 in the mix 😉

 

 

Edited October 9, 2022 by GalloIgnacio

[GalloIgnacio]

I’d be happy to snap some of you all if we ever meet up!

[Croc]

17 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

Mine is a 2020/2021 build - not sure if you have the newer style "race" oil cooler or the older style that mounts in front of the water rad.

 

Older style in front of radiator

 

17 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

I have the 420R "race" nose cone with extra opening for the oil cooler.

 

Older style SV nose cone

 

17 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

on a particular cold fall AM drive to Laguna I was seeing 108F steady state on the freeway at 70mph. That's COLD. Cold enough for me to fear for my engine.

 

Thats too cold.  You would not be burning off the moisture/particulates in the oil at that temp.  Blanking is essential then.

 

17 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

These temps are in the oil tank, btw- I'm not sure of the delta before/after the cooler. I can only hope oil is 50deg hotter in the bearings.

 

 

Ok you are measuring at the tank.  Mine was tapped at the engine.  It will be cooler by the time it gets to the engine. 

 

17 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

I have read about people putting inline thermostats to the oil rad with little change in temps, so I abandoned that idea.

 

No don't do that.  Every time I saw that tried I saw someone rebuilding an engine from oil supply interruption.

 

17 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

My water temp runs rock solid at 197F when underway. Not sure which thermostat I have- it's the one that came fitted as standard.

 

Looks like you have either a 92 or 102F version.  Given year I suspect 102F and the nose cone is keeping it lower.  

 

 

17 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

However, for a pure street car, I think a oil/water (modine) style cooler is superior.

 

Yes agree.  I have the modine on my CSR260 and it works great to get oil up to temp quickly and peg the oil and water temps in sync for road.  However, on track in summer the oil temps can be fearsome causing me to come in if I reach red zone.  

[sltous]

On 10/4/2022 at 12:07 PM, hahuang65 said:

I will be heading up to Kampena on the 13th to chat with Rich and maybe check out some of his stuff there.

@hahuang65Did you make any progress when you were at Kampena?

[hahuang65]

@sltousoh yeah, had a great time. Rich is a super nice guy, was very generous with his time and his car for me. I know I'm definitely gonna get one, and get one from him. Just trying to figure out the timing now. Hoping to put the deposit down real soon.

 

Thanks for checking in!

 

I think I've settled on a 420R, with the only modifications being paint. I'm still on the fence on the 4-pot vs 2-pot front brakes.

I was going to consider the windshield and leather seats purely for my wife, but while we were out there she seemed okay with the aeroscreen and the composite seats.

 

I'm really just wrestling with whether or not I should spend this money at this moment in time when the economy seems about to shit the bed on a "toy that you'll drive once a month" as my wife pointed out. Considering the fact we MAY want to move in the near future, I might want as much money in the bank as possible for a downpayment, and so I've been looking at loans as well, but rates are high and only getting higher. But DAMMIT I want this car.

Edited October 19, 2022 by hahuang65

[GalloIgnacio]

Did you check Lightstream for loans? They are around 5-6% for good credit unless that changes specifically for a Caterham. 
 

Did you get to test drive a Caterham?

 

And did Rich say anything about £$ exchange rates? Would it be a catch-it-on-a-good-day type deal or monthly average etc? That will make or break me when time comes to buy, I don’t exactly want to spend 1.5x the £ amount on one of these things. I think they are worth the £ amount but not exactly the $ amount at times. 

 

And I would get the 2 pots to embrace the lightened spirit of the car. Plus they will give you better experience when you track it. Once you nail your braking points and are applying 100% brakes then I think you could buy any 4 pot you want off the shelf here in USA. The 4 pots look massive in the configurator. I don’t even know if you could apply 100% brake with those and not lock’em up. 

 

Edited October 20, 2022 by GalloIgnacio