General Zetec powered Caterhams/7's discussion

[Vovchandr]

Calling all Zetec owners. How happy are you with the motor? What are your plans for it? What do you put down for power if you have ever dyno'd it.

 

It's a stout motor but not the most powerful one with a power ceiling, especially compared to the Duratec. 

 

We all strive for a little more power and there are multiple avenues to get to it. ITB's, raceline build, turbo, supercharged (seems to be SV only option), cams, SVT or even swapping for Duratec. 

 

I bring this up because I'm at the crossroads above. My Zetec doesn't seem to be too healthy putting out 130whp on ITB's and other work even after tuning and replacing everything I could think of. It was a double digit dyno health condition before being tuned. 

 

I think if I had to start all over I'd simply get myself a raceline build like others have done but I'm somewhat committed to other options at this point and will try to shoe horn a Rotrex SC into the chassis one of these summers and see how that goes. 

 

Very open to discussion on the matter and opinions. 

 

200whp seems like an impossible goal without FI or Raceline on these motors. 

[CarlB]

The Zetec engine is very reliable in my experience. You are correct about its power potential compared to a Duratec . If you look at the bore and stroke difference and the size of the intake ports you will understand why the Zetec doesn't make as much power as the Duratec. The Duratec is lighter because of the aluminum block and the Zetec has a belt driven cam that is more tolerant to harmonics from high RPM and racing camshafts. Raceline would disagree but I think the reliablity goes away over 7500 GPM with the stock crank. You can have a very reliable 200 HP with a very wide torque curve and run pump gas. I turn mine 7200 RPM. You can put in bigger cams and raise the compression to get about 220 HP. You would need race gas and raise the speed to 7500 RPM. If you are looking at swapping engines, I would look at the new Ford turbocharged engines. There are people in the UK who are saying they get over 350 HP from the 1.6 L ecoboost. The stock 2.0 L ecoboost is 250 HP and the 2.3 L ecoboost is over 300 HP. Junk yard engines are available with all the power you need. Ford Performance sells ECUs and wiring. I have been looking for pictures of how the intercooler is installed in a 620 R but haven't found anything. Does anyone have pictures? If you really want to look at something different, The Polaris Sling Shot has its own engine now. It is a 4 cylinder version of the engine they use in their ATVs. The potential power of a naturally aspirated engine is determined by the size of the intake valves.  A bigger bore allows bigger valves. The Polaris engine has a 3.50 inch bore. It also has a forged steel crank and rods. The red line is 8500 RPM and the power rating in the slingshot is 200 HP. I haven't gotten any real information about this engine, but it looks very interesting.  

[Bartman]

Hi there @vovchandr and @Carlb, as you are both talking Zetec I wanted to see if you have any photos of your installation for the reasons detailed below.

 

I know Carl knows, but, I am in the process of installing a Raceline Zetec in my LHD S3 and we are now plumbing it in for the radiator and oil cooler (a water to oil cooler mounted on top of the steering rack behind the main radiator).  To run the hose from the water pump to the radiator we can see there is almost no clearance between the water pump outlet and the steering rod that passes through the exhaust headers to the rack, the rod is very very  close to the water pump outlet and smack bang in the way. The original motor (also a Zetec) had the water pump outlet connection cut back only allowing about 3/4" of a 90 degree elbow hose to be clamped on, with no bead on the outlet to retain the hose and it still rubbed on the steering rod,  this does not appear to be a reliable solution to me, not even enough room to double clamp. We are contemplating cutting the water pump outlet right back to the main casing and then TIG welding a fabricated elbow onto the water pump allowing us to direct the outlet away from the steering rod and provide a better and more reliable/durable solution. 

 

I wondered how your installation dealt with this problem if at all? Any photo's or info gratefully received.

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Bart.

 

[MV8]

FWIW, they started hanging the coolant pump off the side of the timing cover instead of the center of the block from around '98-on. The 1-1/4 or so pipe next to the pump is the pump inlet from the radiator.

 

Not sure where I found this pic. I named it zetec s3. Looks like it was shortened with an aluminum mandrel bend added along with an straight section with the right od.

Edited March 11, 2023 by MV8

[Bartman]

That looks pretty similar to what we had planned. It at least confirms that our thinking is reasonable.

 

 

[CarlB]

Here are two pictures. I told Gus that QuickSilver has the castings attached to the water pump. The lower part is a piece of tube. This fits under the steering shaft. Your radiator is different than mine. Both my inlet and outlet are on the same side. You might want to point the water pump outlet a little different. 

 

 

[Vovchandr]

Mine looks different than both of those, but the car is inaccessible currently for a picture. 

[S1Steve]

Out in the garage changing the oil, so I took a picture of my water pump. 2002 Zetec, and I’ll throw in an old dyno pull.

Edited March 13, 2023 by S1Steve

[Bartman]

Thanks to all, @Carlb I think Eric at Quicksilver has pointed us in the right direction for parts. We opted to have the inlet and outlet on for the radiator on the induction side to help us layout where the water/oil cooler for the gearbox would fit. Its a bit crowded in there with the engine oil cooler, radiator and gearbox cooler!  

[dallasdude]

The water pump interference problem is common, made even a little worse if you use bump stop shims under the steering rack.  The simpler thing to is cut the nipple back on the stock WP housing.  I also normally cut the little nubs off, and use two hose clamps, one outside in the normal clamping place, and one behind the rings to make sure it is retained and doesn't slip off.  

I also did some right angle housings which is the better solution if you can make it work with the rest of your plumbing.  Quicksilver has assembled an engine with one of these pump housings on it.   Eric can probably help you.  I attached some pictures.

 

We regularly make  about 170 hp, 150 foot pounds at the rear wheels on a Dynojet or Mustang dyno With a HP peak 6800. .   That is with a stock early Focus intake, stock pistons and rods, 10-1 compression and Comp cams camshafts (pretty mild). There is a lot of attention to detail, valve job, cylinder sealing, windage etc.  Qucksilver did a lot of the work.  Giving the engine the cam timing it wants is critical.....the difference between straight up at the timing marks and optimized is close to 20 hp.

 

The main reason for not running in the RPM range that ITBs begin to make a difference is not the crankshaft itself but the way the oil pump mounts around the nose.  Creates a vibration that cause it to be ineffective or the gears shatter.  A dry sump of course solves this.  The is an aftermarket wet sump pump that is probably good for 7500.  At one time Quicksilver made billet gears for the wet sump pump.  The Duratec has a chain drive pump.

 

On thing that has become a problem for building Zetecs is the cam followers are on longer available new.   You wind up limited to the thickness followers you have, and to get the right valve clearances you have tip the valves....remove them and take a little off the stem.  Labor intensive.  

[CarlB]

Bartman, Dallasdude probably as a better configuration for you than the way I did it. I am not using an oil cooler. The oil is only 225 to 235 in the pan. The pickup for the pump from the radiator on my car is on the same side as the pump. My radiator hose goes under the steering rack. 

[Vovchandr]

On 3/18/2023 at 5:45 PM, dallasdude said:

 

For the record, mine looks like this too

[Bartman]

Thanks to everyone on this, I went ahead and bought a new housing and will have a local machine shop make the modifications in line with dallasdude's  example. I hope this is the last in a long, long, long line of holdups, alterations, fabrications and general hiccups that has kept my car making very little to no progress in the last 12 months  We will see.

 

For anyone considering a new Zetec engine from Raceline here is a list of things that just got in the way, I don't blame them (Raceline) at all they have been great but transatlantic shipment of parts for a car that was never really standardized and as far as I know they rarely put a Zetec in a Caterham in the UK is always going to be a mess of mistakes and incorrect assumptions and as each problem arises it of course just adds long periods of down time in the rebuild as we wait for the correct part to arrive:-  

 

1. Silicone hose kit supplied does not fit (wrong in almost every way), made my own set, sourced the parts from Siliconehoses.com

2. Angled ITB Inlet manifold supplied does not clear chassis rail, got a straight replacement which clears the rail, I had to send the incorrect one back to have the replacement straight one matched to the ported head and the new one when it arrived was poorly finished with machining marks in all the bores, spent hours polishing them out.

3. Engine mount exhaust side incorrectly fabricated and did not fit, cut it up and rewelded in correct orientation, Arch who made the mount could not explain what went wrong.

4. Water pump interferes with steering, in process.

5. Exhaust supplied headers only good for RHD cars as steering rod passes through the headers, this is not an issue for the RHD versions, reused originals with some modifications.

6. Inlet manifold trumpets 1 damaged, replacement incorrect size, Decided to beat out the dents in the damaged one and use it

7. Oil filler cap too tall to fit under hood without interference, made a low profile version.

 

So nothing that's a major issue just a bunch of minor niggles, but each one adding weeks or months in some cases to resolve. 

 

Oh well, its a marathon not a sprint.

 

B.

 

 

 

 

[MV8]

I wonder why, for LHD, they didn't just add one more joint to the steering shaft and a support bearing versus a custom timing cover/pump housing.

[linenoise]

As someone who just bought a Raceline Zetec thinking that it would be an easy installation.... 

 

Do you have any pics of the issues that you outlined?

[Bartman]

Hi,

 

Ill get some pictures this week and post them. What ECU did you go for?

 

B

[linenoise]

OMEX

[Bartman]

I went with the MBE 9A9 as I wanted to use a paddle shift on the Sadev sequential I added to replace the T9 and not have to mess with adding a GCU to allow clutch-less downshifts. In retrospect it was not a great move as this choice was a cause for the longest delay (6 months), I had to design and make a complete custom loom to accommodate the MBE and the associated wiring for the compressor and blipper . Hopefully with the Omex one you got the loom as part of the deal. 

 

B.

[linenoise]

Yeah, it comes with the loom

[Bartman]

Finally the modification to the water-pump outlet is done, its not pretty as it was cut up and re-done twice but there is now at least 1/4 clearance between the outlet and the steering column. Thanks to all that sent photos etc.