Bring a Trailer questions

[theDreamer]

Can someone here demystify the BaT experience and it’s complexities for me? I am totally at a loss to understand how and why things happen as they do on that site.

For example:

Why do so many bidders place such idiotic low bids (often only one bid) on vehicles they do not have a hope in heck of ever owning. Is it some inside joke I’m not privileged to? Is there some point score that you get for bidding on the most vehicles? Can you earn great prizes?

What’s with new accounts opened only for one auction? And then bids only made on the last day (minutes) of an auction? No previous history of bids or questions and probably never heard from again.

I’m no expert but even I knew something was amiss with that first auction on the seven in Hawaii. The winner felt cheated and the seller was the big loser. Stress he didn’t need when he was making such a big change in his life. (IMHO Both bidders should have been taken out behind the wood shed.)

I’ve been following BaT for about ten years. However, I only registered about 6-8 months ago when I realized if I was ever going to own a seven it had to be now, before the wife retires.

My recent loss has left me wondering what I might have done differently. Yes, having a bigger bank account would have made a slight difference. But we’ll never know because I don’t have deep pockets. I had a hard limit which included funds to cover repairs and maintenance I felt the car needed. What good would it have bin to blow the wad on buying the car and then have it sit because I couldn’t afford to buy the parts or pay for the service I felt it required.

[inchoate]

BAT is pretty well publicized at this point so it attracts a lot of people who don't necessarily conform to the traditional way of doing things.  I sold a car there back in 2016 and it was a good experience but as with everything ymmv.  Fwiw there's a lot of the same stuff going on on Reverb and some of the other specialist auction sites.  It's annoying, but honestly I can't get too pushed about it.  If it annoys you too much don't buy or sell through them, there are lots of other options.

[Vovchandr]

You ask a lot of questions that seem more rhetoric out of frustration rather than actual inquiries.

 

BaT is a "forum"/social"media"/"auction" rolled into one. Winner doesn't equal to buyer to the best of my understanding and neither party has an actual contractual obligation to sell or buy. Winner just gets the rights to contact the seller and the seller gets to use his fees to get in touch with the buyer who promises the total etc.

 

As far as strange antics from users... that comes with the social aspect of it. Like you there are many many users that have no interest in signing up or bidding or chatting unless they have something in mind to buy now and maybe only once. Hence no prior history or possibly future. Funny bids are essentially an inside joke. It's almost a right of passage for somebody to bid $7,777 for a  Seven by somebody even if they have no interest in buying as they know the final auction will always go way higher than that. I personally am a user and a poster but I have no actual interest in buying anything.. hence the social part of it. Just another place to chit chat with fellow 7 enthusiasts and get the precious "likes/thumbs up" that mean nothing other than self validation that you did something right. 

 

Of course there are also those "do gooders" that like to contribute to discussion and sale to make sure buyers are well informed by the keen eyes of other enthusiasts. This is where @Croc comes in with his regular (and very usefull) VIN Decoding free service, and he's got a mountain of thumbs up to prove it. 

 

Just like any auction the final minutes is where everything really counts. The full run period of the auction is just there to make sure as many people as possible get reached, but nothing really matters until people get competitive in the last minutes. 

 

There is a lot of "free money" that a large portion of the population has gotten in the last years between the market doing good, or lucky bets on the market or just the equity people have acquired in their housing. Combine that with the mental desperation of getting older, reality of dangers of things like Covid and the presumed upcoming death of ICE engines and values have gone through the roof. Double so for pristine and rare models that typically get listed on BAT. You will often see super buyers on that site with winning collections just from BAT in many hundreds of thousands of dollars and a dozen cars. 

 

Be willing to spend more is the only real advice. You won't find a "steal" on such a popular platform. Too many eyes on it. You'd have to find a local seller and thats extremely rare for such vehicles. The one local seller near by me who didn't list on anything other than Facebook and didn't give out any personal info was overwheled with buyers who found his address and started showing up at his door and essentially bidding to buy the vehicle. Market is craaaaazy. Steals are nearly impossible to find in this information age. 

 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Vovchandr

[speedwagon]

Edited 12 hours ago by Vovchandr;   thanks for a quite complete explanation of what goes on there. I prefer a "winner wins" to buy. But would consider selling there with an unusual offering.  john

[Croc]

On 11/7/2023 at 1:49 PM, theDreamer said:

Why do so many bidders place such idiotic low bids (often only one bid) on vehicles they do not have a hope in heck of ever owning.

 

 

Its the social media aspect of BAT.  Allows participants with no money to feel a little something from the participation.  No one has ever won an auction with a silly bid like that as they are all low ball.  People think it is fun.

 

 

On 11/7/2023 at 1:49 PM, theDreamer said:

What’s with new accounts opened only for one auction? And then bids only made on the last day (minutes) of an auction? No previous history of bids or questions and probably never heard from again.

 

This is the piece of BAT from recent years that I do not like.  Brokers and dealers will activate burner accounts for bidding.  They win the auction then go out to their clients to try to pitch the car.  If they fail, and they know within a very short time, then they walk from the auction.  They lose their BAT fee and they get their account banned - but its only a burner account and not their real profile. 

 

There are probably some of those accounts which are second accounts to try and one up the other bidders, out-psyche them.  Not sure that is effective. 

 

Last minute bidding is always a thing in every auction. It is at regular auctions in person.  It was on Ebay.  Its on BAT.  No point using up all your firepower early in an auction - you more likely overpay without being able to assess who the competition is and their likely ability to out bid you.

 

No history of questions on a auction?  My questions are directed to the seller privately offline.  In the auctions, I have bid on, most of the commentary is usually spectacularly wrong compared with the actual facts.  I do my own research and I never share it in the commentary.  Why should I?   It would be like bidding against myself. 

 

 

On 11/7/2023 at 1:49 PM, theDreamer said:

My recent loss has left me wondering what I might have done differently. Yes, having a bigger bank account would have made a slight difference. But we’ll never know because I don’t have deep pockets. I had a hard limit which included funds to cover repairs and maintenance I felt the car needed. What good would it have bin to blow the wad on buying the car and then have it sit because I couldn’t afford to buy the parts or pay for the service I felt it required.

 

 

 

I think you are a very sensible purchaser with your approach.  You should have a limit and you should have a view on how much is needed post auction to make it be right for you.  There is a lot of people on BAT with big wallets who do not have the discipline to bid properly and do not care if they later sell at a loss.  Unfortunately this has led to a ramp up in values from the "immediate gratification" factor.  Personally, I would never sell a car on BAT as I do not have the patience for an ill-informed peanut gallery.  I am also very selective on what I buy there.  Two of the cars I bought on BAT were bid down by the "experts" commenting.  If they asked the seller the right questions offline and looked at the photos carefully then the right answer was available.    There used to be a lot of screaming deals each week - not any more.  I would be looking elsewhere for se7ens if I were you.  Plenty of other sales channels to keep monitoring.  Unfortunately it is a niche market, so not a lot of product to chose from.  You have to be patient and ready to jump. 

[wdb]

I should start by saying I'm guilty on all counts. I've put bids in on cars I will never win, many times. When I was a n00b on BaT I bid some amount on a GT40, because I've always wanted one and now I can say I once put a bid in on one. That was not the only time I've done it either. Just yesterday I bid $1281 on a BMW 128i. (I am genuinely interested in that car.) There used to be someone who would bid $911 on every Porsche 911 that came up for auction. Why not, I say. It's fun. I'll also put in a lowball-ish bid on "no reserve" cars, just in case. No hits on that so far.

 

In my first few years of participation I made a lot of comments, mostly about the cars of which I had personal knowledge, but also some "wow that's a gorgeous thing" stuff too. Commentary is what makes BaT a unique forum. I've learned tons from the comments. I hope I have added a few educational bits of my own. I don't participate as much these days as I used to, but I still enjoy reading the comments section of cars that pique my interest.

 

I've won three auctions on BaT. The most recent was my little yellow Caterham. Along the way I've had predominantly good experiences, met some great folks, and learned some lessons.

• Always always always use the "Contact Seller" button. BaT initiates the exchange and then steps completely out of it. You can freely share information back and forth with the other party.
• Set a maximum bid and stick to it. (Although I did bid with my heart a little bit on Z4MC; no regrets.)
• Don't be afraid to buy a car that's had major repairs, so long as you have ample evidence of them being done right.
• Buy the owner as much as the car. Sounds like a cliche but it's not.
• If something smells like fish, it's fish.

 

I've sold one car on BaT. A 2015 Mercedes-Benz S65 AMG Coupe. I chose to sell it there because it seemed like a good fit between venue and vehicle. (I don't think I'd try to sell anything on BaT that wasn't genuinely unusual.) The car sold for considerably more than I had been offered by dealers and others. The commenters were often harsh however, which was not entirely pleasant. If I find myself in a position to possibly put another car on BaT I will keep that in mind.

 

• Spiff the car up as much as you can! I'm retired so I had time to properly prep the car.
• Take lots and lots of pictures! A friend with camera skills helped with that important aspect of the process.
• Be attentive and responsive during the live auction! Answer as honestly and thoroughly as you can. (I truly believe that comes through even across digital media.)
• There is a time/effort commitment required -- see the above 3 bullet points.
• I did not use a broker. They all wanted far, far too much money/percentage IMESHO. One of them berated me at length, telling me how wrongheaded I was to think that I could get anywhere near the price he would be able to secure for me, considering all of his superior skills and experience. Yeah, just the kind of person with which I'd want to enter into a financial transaction -- not.
• I had one guy call me and tell me he would buy the car from me, hard cash, on the spot; it was the perfect car for his cancer-ridden wife, and seeing as how he was a major player in the Hawaii resort real estate market the price would be a small matter for him. Ooookay. I thanked him for his interest and told him I looked forward to his bid, and that if it didn't meet reserve we might talk more. I still can't quite figure out what scam he thought he was pulling. Maybe he never got to the 'hook' part?

 

One of the cars I went to look at years ago really helped clue me in to the seamier side of BaT. It was an old aircooled 911, kind-of sort-of converted from street car to race car. It seemed like it might be fun and relatively inexpensive. And it was local. I looked it over and realized that it was actually a horror show, a mishmash of bits tacked onto a rusty hulk and splashed with bright paint. While I was there the seller offered to cancel the auction and let me have the car at his reserve price. During the course of the auction I watched with interest as two brand new bidders ran the price up to just below that reserve number. I let BaT know all of this. They shrugged. Moral: go into Bring a Trailer, or any other auction site, with eyes wide open. Caveat emptor!

 

 

 

[wdb]

6 hours ago, Croc said:

This is the piece of BAT from recent years that I do not like.  Brokers and dealers will activate burner accounts for bidding.  They win the auction then go out to their clients to try to pitch the car.  If they fail, and they know within a very short time, then they walk from the auction.  They lose their BAT fee and they get their account banned - but its only a burner account and not their real profile. 

Wow, that's an interesting angle. I guess they have burner credit cards too?  I feel as though BaT prices may be a bit high for such machinations to be all that profitable. Perhaps if the car is rare enough or one of the hot items that people are willing to pay $mucho$ $dinero$ over MSRP...

Edited November 9, 2023 by wdb

[theDreamer]

Wow! This is what I like about “real” enthusiast groups like this one. Here people are willing to share their knowledge and experiences. We are always learning new stuff or being re-educated on what we thought we knew. The stories I could tell you about the world of antique collecting…

Yes, some of my questions may have sounded rhetorical but I genuinely wanted to know. I do not understand some of the subtleties of social media. To me, many of these things are off putting making them more antisocial. Some I take as passive aggressive comments. And yes, I do get frustrated but that’s nothing new.

I like a bargain as well as the next guy but… I am willing to pay to play. However, in my case I have limits. I understand there will always be people who do not.

I really felt a pit in my stomach when that one bid came in the morning of the last day. With a minute to go I figured just another one time bidder and then, BAM! He strikes. I give it one more shot but it was clear he was just going to keep bumping my every bid. I saw a repeat of the Hawaii car coming and wasn’t up for that crap. Maybe he’s a good guy or maybe he’s the other bidder from that ill-fated auction. OR, just maybe he’s a dealer who will sell it on. But ya, I don’t like the idea of burner accounts/credit cards and people willing to give up 5% as the cost of doing business. They just pass those costs on to the next suck…er, I mean um, buyer.

I did not want to call out the seller as he may not have known the whole truth about the car he was selling. However, when I mentioned I’d planned on driving the car home if I won he said I should rent a trailer. He was very adamant that I not drive the car a long distance before I had a chance to go over everything. So insistent that he offered to deliver it to me if I won. Made me wonder if there may have been a bigger issue than what I found. Oh well, someone else’s car now.

Speaking of “spectacularly wrong” comments; why would a seller advertise his car as a 1.6L when a quick google search shows the Donnell 195 model would have been a 2.0L? That one had me scratching my head.

I remember a time when Bring-a-Trailer was the correct phraseology as most of the vehicles on offer were unfinished projects. Now it should read: Bring a BIG Trailer full of cash.

I’ll keep watching all the usual sites and the for sale page here. Croc seems to do a bang up job on whatever he puts his mind to. Whether it’s VIN I.D. sevens for sale or designing a killer se7en.

Thanks to all who have and those that may still add to this conversation.

[Marek]

So much good advice in this thread!  I've been on the seller side 7 times but never as a buyer.  I'd do it again, but selectively.  The car, the condition, and the timing all matter.  As does your engagement as a seller.  Over-communicate and be positive and supportive of commenters.  For us, most auctions had a vibe.  If we did our work preparing and presenting the car and telling its honest story, that vibe was positive and paid off.  But once a vibe goes sour it becomes tough to turn around.  And then sometimes an auction has no energy at all.  Our sample of experiences with both BaT staff and buyers were all positive.

 

BaT is also a victim of their own success and decisions they have made on what level of buyer protection to provide.  In doing so, they left room for Cars & Bids (where we have also sold) to fill a different niche; which they are also doing successfully (your patience with Doug's persona aside).

 

My advice (on either platform) is do your research - understand the history on all platforms you follow of cars like yours.  If you are a seller, thoroughly prepare and commit to being engaged in the auction.  If a buyer, get answers to your questions and be prepared to walk away.

 

My own minor peeve with both BaT and C&Bs is photography.  Please, please, sellers, don't take pictures with your phone fully zoomed out.  Step back, zoom in, and give us pictures with realistic perspective.  Proportions and lines matter with cars - take the time to show us how great your car looks.

[wdb]

You may want to check out Hagerty auctions. They vet bidder and seller, and act as intermediary in the transaction after the auction ends.