ECU mapping and engine tuning

[Tempesto]

Has anyone else had a problem finding someone to tune their aftermarket ECU? The US market has done what it always does, run the little guys out of business and we’re left with a few ECU manufacturers and that’s what the “tuners” in my area want to work with. I had the good fortune to purchase a well sorted Birkin S3 that has preformed flawlessly for 3 years but after having to replace the O2 sensor and the associated wiring I found my ECU had jumped maps/tunes, it’s too complicated to explain the how but the car started running poorly and very lean as evidenced by the exhaust. My last instance of tuning a car for money involved changing plugs points and condenser so I am dating my skill level. So I contacted a “tuner” what a joke, who agreed to look at my software and decide if he wanted the job, did I forget to mention my ecu is a 20 y/o Emerald K3 from the UK probably didn’t. The first “tuner” I spoke to defined rude when we met face to face, if he didn’t want to take the job he should have just said so rather than belittle me for not knowing what I was talking about when I had already told him I knew nothing when it came to what he does. The second “tuner” I contacted has ghosted me on three platforms so I’m guessing he’s not interested either. There are a few shops in the area but they only tune what they build. I’m looking at $1,500 +- to swap ecu and harness parts alone then I am still at the mercy of folks that have been convinced by their customers that they are some kind of rock stars and some act like it. I have taught myself the ecu software it’s really not that complicated and am working on learning how to use logging software to confirm my mapping is working but without a dyno I have no yardstick to gauge the effects the changes I make are having on the engine. This has turned into an editorial instead of looking for some insight into what you folks may have experienced and how I might proceed. But this is a real PITA if you don’t have access. What’s your experience?

[Vovchandr]

What engine is in your Birkin?

 

I have found that the right tuner is worth his weight in gold. My experience with a local guy who's mostly domestic is that he will say yes to everything but you'll pay and results are questionable. 

 

Tuner I used is a member on here and I trailered the car half way down the country to use him and was very very happy with results and how patient and easy to work with he was, not to mention accommodating. (Tom @1turbofocus) With that said, in my case the problem was more so with my car and my ECU/Software (Pectel T2 on ITBs) being difficult and me not having any sort of Wideband datalogging setup.

 

Whether you find a tuner or not it's still a great idea to understand what the tune is, how it works and what's the entire point of the tune. I'm still in the process of that as well as still in the process of setting up a datalog (very important to you and or tuner to do the right thing).

 

My other experience was contacting a shop not too far from me in the NE and they, not in so few words, said that your ECU is worthless and we will waste time learning and it and working around it that you will pay for. Your best bet is to swap ECU's to ours that we are familiar with, get all the sensors setup from the get go and get it tuned right. All for a quick sum of I think $6900 or so. I'm sure the cost is right for all the work but that's too far away from what I needed done and the budget I had. 

 

Consensus is, learn as much as you can, setup your existing car to be able to datalog and have wideband and keep searching for a tuner that's right for you. 

 

Edit: I see through your history that you have a Zetec. Tom mentioned above is your best bet by far. Reach out to him and find a way to get to him is my best advice. He's been a Zetec/Duratec guru for decades. 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Vovchandr

[Tempesto]

All good advice and thank you Vovchndr. Looks like I'm heading in the right direction even if I still don't have much of a clue.

Yes I have a 2.0 Zetec Ford Racing head, ZX3 block, Eagle rods, Probe 10:1 pistons, Crower St3 cams, 65 mm throttle body, supposedly dyno'd at 170 rwh 15 years ago I'm sure a few of the horses have left the barn. Car's only 1200lbs it runs exceptionally well, scares me on the track with only a bar and not full cage.

I'll reach out to Tom, thank you. Maybe he does remote, there's a shop in town that rents their equipment for remotes.

[1turbofocus]

44 minutes ago, Tempesto said:

All good advice and thank you Vovchndr. Looks like I'm heading in the right direction even if I still don't have much of a clue.

Yes I have a 2.0 Zetec Ford Racing head, ZX3 block, Eagle rods, Probe 10:1 pistons, Crower St3 cams, 65 mm throttle body, supposedly dyno'd at 170 rwh 15 years ago I'm sure a few of the horses have left the barn. Car's only 1200lbs it runs exceptionally well, scares me on the track with only a bar and not full cage.

59 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

What engine is in your Birkin?

 

I have found that the right tuner is worth his weight in gold. My experience with a local guy who's mostly domestic is that he will say yes to everything but you'll pay and results are questionable. 

 

Tuner I used is a member on here and I trailered the car half way day the country to use him and was very very happy with results and how patient and easy to work with he was, not to mention accommodating. (Tom @1turbofocus) With that said, in my case the problem was more so with my car and my ECU/Software (Pectel T2 on ITBs) being difficult and me not having any sort of Wideband datalogging setup.

 

Whether you find a tuner or not it's still a great idea to understand what the tune is, how it works and what's the entire point of the tune. I'm still in the process of that as well as still in the process of setting up a datalog (very important to you and or tuner to do the right thing).

 

My other experience was contacting a shop not too far from me in the NE and they, not in so few words, said that your ECU is worthless and we will waste time learning and it and working around it that you will pay for. Your best bet is to swap ECU's to ours that we are familiar with, get all the sensors setup from the get go and get it tuned right. All for a quick sum of I think $6900 or so. I'm sure the cost is right for all the work but that's too far away from what I needed done and the budget I had. 

 

Consensus is, learn as much as you can, setup your existing car to be able to datalog and have wideband and keep searching for a tuner that's right for you. 

 

Edit: I see through your history that you have a Zetec. Tom mentioned above is your best bet by far. Reach out to him and find a way to get to him is my best advice. He's been a Zetec/Duratec guru for decades. 

I'll reach out to Tom, thank you. Maybe he does remote, there's a shop in town that rents their equipment for remotes.

Thanks 

Tom

[1turbofocus]

45 minutes ago, Tempesto said:

All good advice and thank you Vovchndr. Looks like I'm heading in the right direction even if I still don't have much of a clue.

Yes I have a 2.0 Zetec Ford Racing head, ZX3 block, Eagle rods, Probe 10:1 pistons, Crower St3 cams, 65 mm throttle body, supposedly dyno'd at 170 rwh 15 years ago I'm sure a few of the horses have left the barn. Car's only 1200lbs it runs exceptionally well, scares me on the track with only a bar and not full cage.

I'll reach out to Tom, thank you. Maybe he does remote, there's a shop in town that rents their equipment for remotes.

What ECU / PCM are you running ?

 

Tom

[Tempesto]

1 hour ago, 1turbofocus said:

What ECU / PCM are you running ?

 

Tom

My ecu is a Emerald K3, all I have is engine management and a Wideband O2. I contacted Emerald they said the ecu is still within it's service life, wouldn't give much more. I understand I would probably need to but something new.

[Croc]

@JohnCh  Didn't you have Emerald on the Westfield?

[1turbofocus]

1 hour ago, Tempesto said:

My ecu is a Emerald K3, all I have is engine management and a Wideband O2. I contacted Emerald they said the ecu is still within it's service life, wouldn't give much more. I understand I would probably need to but something new.

If you have the Software so you can link to it and have the correct Cables I dont see why you would need to change it 

 

Tom

[MV8]

Just following the discussion, but I was just curious about "replaced o2 and associated wiring". Did you replace the narrow band with a wide band input to the ecu? I assume you are running the Emerald software.

[Tempesto]

9 minutes ago, 1turbofocus said:

If you have the Software so you can link to it and have the correct Cables I dont see why you would need to change it 

 

Tom

The only reason I would change the ecu would be if it absolutely required time on a dyno and a mechanic that knows how to repair the car. Right now I don't have anyone in a 200 mile radius that will touch my cars computer except me. I should be able to tell if my map is functioning like I want it to with data logging but it wont tell me if I'm adding of losing power.

[Tempesto]

2 minutes ago, MV8 said:

Just following the discussion, but I was just curious about "replaced o2 and associated wiring". Did you replace the narrow band with a wide band input to the ecu? I assume you are running the Emerald software.

I replaced an older model Innovate Motorsports Wideband O2 that was physically broken with a newer model from the same vendor. I use Innovate software to manage the sensor. The Emerald software allows you to input the O2 data on a couple different ports. I used the Emerald and Innovate manuals to get the sensor and ecu talking. The issue came because Emerald uses a ground scheme to change maps internally one of three ports. One of the grounds I reconfigured for the new o2 sensor was in common with the ecu as directed by the instructions so when the ground disappeared to the ecu it switched back to the statup map for a 1.8 zetec stocker. The guy at the first tuneup shop I went to told me it was impossible and I didn't know what I was talking about and he'd never seen the software or the car. 

 

[MV8]

I'm sure turbofocus in NC can help you and he has experience with emerald. Your first focus should not be more power on a dyno sheet but proper afr for the loading and no detonation from too much timing for the load site. Closed loop automatic adjustment should be locked out until you get the base line acceptable. Just use the wide band for real time and datalog monitoring for feedback on what to change.

 

Bike tuners may not be able to strap the birkin into the dyno but they may be more receptive to learning about emerald. They can sit in the pax seat with a lap top and make changes while you drive. Plenty of bike shop tuners in FL that could use a side hustle.

 

Good thing the first tuner guy didn't get to touch anything.

[Tempesto]

3 hours ago, MV8 said:

I'm sure turbofocus in NC can help you and he has experience with emerald. Your first focus should not be more power on a dyno sheet but proper afr for the loading and no detonation from too much timing for the load site. Closed loop automatic adjustment should be locked out until you get the base line acceptable. Just use the wide band for real time and datalog monitoring for feedback on what to change.

 

Bike tuners may not be able to strap the birkin into the dyno but they may be more receptive to learning about emerald. They can sit in the pax seat with a lap top and make changes while you drive. Plenty of bike shop tuners in FL that could use a side hustle.

 

Good thing the first tuner guy didn't get to touch anything.

Unfortunately most of what you just said is greek to me, I don't have a frame of reference to pull from. If there are more basic terms and instructions I need those. I learn by example.

The bike tuner is interesting.

The first guy is well known and respected, not much bedside manner. 

[Tempesto]

It's not like I'd be starting from scratch I still have copies of the baseline startup map and the original map I've been running on for 2 years, I tracked the car on that map and they are both unchanged. I just don't know where to go from here

[wemtd]

Tempesto

try searching and/or posting on LocostUSA forum. There used to be a lot of Emerald users there. They're just as good as the folks here on USA7s, but a lot more mechanically skilled. 

 

good luck

[1turbofocus]

14 hours ago, Tempesto said:

The only reason I would change the ecu would be if it absolutely required time on a dyno and a mechanic that knows how to repair the car. Right now I don't have anyone in a 200 mile radius that will touch my cars computer except me. I should be able to tell if my map is functioning like I want it to with data logging but it wont tell me if I'm adding of losing power.

Any ECU will need Dyno Time for Tuning and to Adj the cam gears , Unlike the stock ECU most guys running standalone dont have a working knock sensor so its very hard to set the timing by remote Tuning with out one

 

Tom

[MV8]

9 hours ago, Tempesto said:

It's not like I'd be starting from scratch I still have copies of the baseline startup map and the original map I've been running on for 2 years, I tracked the car on that map and they are both unchanged. I just don't know where to go from here

Install/load the backup copy on to the ecu hardware via the emerald software. It sounds like you have the documentation on how to do that. No dyno or tuning to switch back, just computer skills.

[Tempesto]

21 minutes ago, 1turbofocus said:

Any ECU will need Dyno Time for Tuning and to Adj the cam gears , Unlike the stock ECU most guys running standalone dont have a working knock sensor so its very hard to set the timing by remote Tuning with out one

 

Tom

The cam timing has been adjusted with the gears so someone must have tuned it on a dyno at sometime in it's life. No, no knock sensor.

[Tempesto]

19 minutes ago, MV8 said:

Install/load the backup copy on to the ecu hardware via the emerald software. It sounds like you have the documentation on how to do that. No dyno or tuning to switch back, just computer skills.

 

 

 

 

I have the backup loaded and another map I wrote that's a little richer that the original using the same timing. You have a lot of confidence in my computer skills, even the Emerald manual is a hinderance. the British and us are a people separated by a common language, if you want to program a map you just hit program make changes to your map and when you're done you hit save, correct........NO there is no save feature except to save a map to disc you have to program/make changes to your map then to apply changes to your map you hit "program map" then save your changes to disc. I wasted a lot of time figuring that one out so not too smart. I'm going to recalibrate the o2 sensor this morning, double check my ecu maps and weather permitting get a road test in and see if I still have the midrange lean misfire. Thanks Guys it helps a lot bouncing things around and hearing different ideas. I shouldn't have this sentimental attachment to the little car but it's just a kick in the ass to drive and I want it back, saved my sanity after my wife passed.

[fastg]

When picking a ECU the first question should be what can I get tuned locally. Most of you guys are running Ford engines, so just about any ECU will work and I am sure you can get a harness. But that is not your problem, you have what you have. Unless you are on a spec class race series I have never played with cam timing, so dismiss that. You have a working map so use that ignition timing, You just need a injection tune, you have a base tune and you can data log. There are some good phone apps that will measure performance with very good accuracy, you might need to add an external GPS sensor to get the best results, I use the Garmin GLO. This will allow you to match performance to the data log. This is time consuming and can be scary/fun because you will need it do full gear pulls on the street. The 1:1 ration gear is the best, 4th on a 5 speed and 5th on a 6 speed is the norm, you can use a lower gear if the speeds are getting to high, just use the same gear all the time. You will need a nice quite road:) With a little effort you will get it running well. 

 

Graham