The impact of 35mpg

[BobDrye]

If a Hummer gets 6.25mpg, then to travel 100 miles it consumes 2048 ounces of fuel. A vehicle that gets 25mpg consumes 512 ounces. At 50mpg the requirement is 256 ounces, or almost a 90% reduction in consumption. For a manufacturer to have a fleet average of 35mpg it's going to have to sell a lot of 50mpg cars. What will they look like?

[MoPho]

Fantastic!!

[West7se]

nope, worse than that

 

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5494/ourcars.jpg

 

http://www.whatcar.com/news-article.aspx?NA=232914

 

"Built from recycled carbonfibre, which is used extensively in making racing cars"

 

LOL

 

Rich

Edited May 20, 2009 by West7se

[Mondo]

perhaps...

Edited May 20, 2009 by Mondo

[DeanG]

I still think an extra $3 per gallon federal fuel tax would take care of a lot of our problems (e.g., Hummers would only be driven by rich A-holes rather than by middle class A-holes).

[southwind25]

that peugot looks like a cockroach

[slngsht]

I think we'll manage just fine. I would have preferred a market solution than a government mandate though.

[West7se]

I still think an extra $3 per gallon federal fuel tax would take care of a lot of our problems (e.g., Hummers would only be driven by rich A-holes rather than by middle class A-holes).

 

Wont and dosen`t work. Been done to death over here, all it does is put the low earning motorist off the road, our tax is 80%

So for every £10 of fuel you put in your tank the govt get £8 - simply not right.

[WestTexasS2K]

It wont work. Not enough people will buy the 50mpg cars to offset the bigger vehicles. The only way to get people to change to small cars is to jack the price to $6 per gallon.

 

Just wait until this Carbon Cap BS passes. Expect all energy prices to rise 75-90%. Electricy will likely be more than your house payment. They think that there are alot of forclosures on the market now just hold on. Prices on everything will go thru the roof. The few remaining manufactures that are in the US are going to move to Mexico and China or wherever to avoid the tax. This will wipe out the middle class and the poor will become even poorer. I dont know what the hell these people are thinking, but the way everything else that is getting crammed down our throats I wouldnt be surprised if congress just pushes it thru. Everyone knows that OBAMA is in support of it.

Even stated during his campaign tours that he plans on taxing coal power plants so heavily that they will not be able to stay in business. If they do the consumer prices will sky rocket. He said it with a straigt face and the media just let it slide on by. Unbelievable.

[oilteq]

If we just throw the Hummer guys under the bus, do you think that they will stand by us when Washington decides to get rid of funny little cars that are used primarily for recreation? This is America. Each individual should be able to decide what he wants to drive, without funding social programs via the gas pump.

[slngsht]

Well, I don't know what does work. Clearly if nothing is done, things will progress until the brink of collapse (i.e. actual - not artificial - oil shortage). The auto industry has fought every standard along the way, arguing that they will make whatever consumers demand.

 

Consumers have demanded gas thirsty cars, because the cost of operating them is inconsequentional in their budgets.

 

Gas tax just results in bigger government. There is no self control there.

 

The problem is more than just about SUVs vs minis. It has to do with how far people commute to work. It impacts the cost of all the goods we buy, etc...

 

There are down sides to every way of slicing these things. I haven't heard anyone propose a solution other than:

 

Mandate higher standards

Raise some sort of tax (consumption, guzzler, etc...)

Let supply and demand work its magic

 

Normally I'm for the last option, but I can see in this case things can get desparate before the supply / demand dynamic starts correcting things.

[West7se]

Yes slngsht, what you say is correct but I cant help feeling that the auto industries created this situation themselves. By that I mean they produced ever bigger engines and heavy bodywork and said these were what we needed, and human nature being what it is , we all thought yeah this must be better.

 

I watched a very interesting TV proggy a while back on the reasons why electric cars were taken off the roads, I think it was chrysler with its EV1, then after a short period they took them all back and destroyed them all - why?. Everyone who was given one loved it, yes it still needed to be charged up at home and in doing so also used oil via the production of the electric in the first instance, but no way did it use as much oil as a normal petrol car. I may be wildly wrong here, but I couldn`t help feeling that the govt and chrysler saw what was coming and took action before these cars really took off. Maybe they saw the end of oil production or at the very least a significant slow down, thereby reducing the govt`s income.

 

Its also worth mentioning that the hydrogen fuel cell seems to be the way to go at the moment, although I see that battery technology is attemping to keep up.

 

Also for the case of diesel engines, the current fad of using secondhand chipshop frying oil still continues and folks are now growing there own rape seed oil by planting and harvesting.

 

 

Just my views.

 

Rich

[Kitcat]

I don't blame car companies-they made what people wanted. And people wanted large gas-guzzling SUV's. Why? Search me, bigger is better? I have a theory that as the average American's body has increased in size, their car sizes have increased to compensate.

 

OK, the car companies were enablers and complicit, but if some had tried to market mostly small, gas efficient automobiles over the last 20 years,they would have been eaten alive by the car companies who catered to what the car-buying public really wanted.

 

I think the mess we are in now is the result of too little not too much government regulation (I know I have just offended the sensibilities of 95% of the members here, and am donning my helmet and Nomex as I type). The only reason Detroit makes any cars that get 1/2 decent gas mileage is the government required them to, via CAFE standards. Thanks to the light truck gas mileage exemption, huge, gas guzzling automobiles were then replaced by huge gas-guzzling SUV's and pick ups. Had the CAFE standards been extended to all light vehicles, the problem would be much smaller.

 

Of course, the government also helped us get in this fix by supporting super cheap gas prices via its gas-tax policy and refusal to do anything serious about the problem.

 

So here we are, Detroit's on the ropes and we are "addicted to oil" as W noted, with the consequence that we are beholden to the likes of Chavez in Venezuela, our buddies in Saudi Arabia, etc., etc.

[West7se]

 

OK, the car companies were enablers and complicit, but if some had tried to market mostly small, gas efficient automobiles over the last 20 years,they would have been eaten alive by the car companies who catered to what the car-buying public really wanted.

 

.

 

 

They did with the EV1 , thats my point. The public liked that car, so what went wrong? How come they were never able to buy them and why were they all destroyed, there is more to meets the eye with this one.

 

Rich

 

EDIT - wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1#Who_Killed_The_Electric_Car.3F

 

According to GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, his worst decision of his tenure at GM was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids. It didn’t affect profitability, but it did affect image." Wagoner repeated this assertion during an NPR interview after the December 2008 Senate hearings on the U.S. auto industry bailout request.

According to the March 13, 2007, issue of Newsweek, "GM R&D chief Larry Burns . . . now wishes GM hadn't killed the plug-in hybrid EV1 prototype his engineers had on the road a decade ago: 'If we could turn back the hands of time,' says Burns, 'we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier.'"

Edited May 21, 2009 by West7se

[Davemk1]

Bob Lutz was on Letterman last night and for the most part seemed like he did a very good job taking the right share of responsibility for the current position they find themselves in.

 

The sad part was it as obvious that he had no real idea when the new Chevy Volt would hit the market. Letterman kept asking and Lutz kept dancing. Eventually he said it would hit the showrooms "some time in 2010 to late 2011". Hard to believe that he doesn't even know when the savior product of GM will actually be hitting the streets. They are putting most of their eggs in this one basket and they can't even say when. Sounds to me like they still have large technical hurdles with the car. He says he expects it to sell for $40K but he has no idea when.

 

Seems par for the course to me.

 

Dave

[powderbrake]

Don't forget there is lots of oil off our coasts and in Alaska. Yes it's a finite amount, but they keep finding more. I'm all for letting the market work, drive anything you want, and by the time we run out, they will have perfected the batteries needed to operate a "real" electric car. We can recharge them from our nuclear powerplant generated electricity.

 

And yes, we can put the nuclear waste in the facility in Arizona, or shoot it into space, or bury it in my back yard. I would love to receive the income from a nuclear storage facility. YIMBY ( Yes in my back yard)

 

Why do we have suv's? Not because we are fat, but because our lifestyles have changed and we need the room. Room to put multiple kids and their hockey-baseball-tennis-etc gear, along with the baby seats. We have moved to the suburbs, and we have to drive the kids to school and all the various activities. We like to remodel our homes, and need a spacious vehicle to carry lumber and drywall. Some people are hunters, and need to haul their decoys or dogs. Some people fish, and haul their 250hp bass boat with a diesel duallie pick-up. More power to them, if they can afford it. etc.

 

People want room, and don't want the "stigma" of driving a minivan, so I propose we stop trying to change everybodies lifestyle, and rename the vehicles. No more SUV's ( which used to be built on truck chassis, but seldom are now) no more minivans....... we will call them STATION WAGONS!!!!

 

More room than a car, uses a car engine, good gas mileage, not built on a truck chassis, guys can drive them without fear of what their friend think, and it solves the whole problem.

[West7se]

Bob Lutz was on Letterman last night and for the most part seemed like he did a very good job taking the right share of responsibility for the current position they find themselves in.

 

The sad part was it as obvious that he had no real idea when the new Chevy Volt would hit the market. Letterman kept asking and Lutz kept dancing. Eventually he said it would hit the showrooms "some time in 2010 to late 2011". Hard to believe that he doesn't even know when the savior product of GM will actually be hitting the streets. They are putting most of their eggs in this one basket and they can't even say when. Sounds to me like they still have large technical hurdles with the car. He says he expects it to sell for $40K but he has no idea when.

 

Seems par for the course to me.

 

Dave

 

Update to your post Dave, posted 2hrs ago.

 

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/openroad/post/2009/05/67096447/1

[Davemk1]

Update to your post Dave, posted 2hrs ago.

 

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/openroad/post/2009/05/67096447/1

 

 

Cool...... thanks for the link. As Lutz said it will cost about $40k. The government will subsidize the purchase (with our tax money - so we are giving a discount to Volt buyers) to the tune of $7500 so the consumer will pay $32.5K.

 

dave

[Mondo]

I think oil is like diamonds... make just enough to keep demand and prices up. And just low enough to keep alternative energy from being developed. Perhaps there should be a minimum cost for gasoline so inventers can have a benchmark for their investors.

 

This last go round has made many seriously consider a high mileage car regardless of what fuel is currently selling for. I feel sorry for those that are getting used cooking oil for fuel as I recently saw (maybe here) a guy that is selling a generator to restaurants that takes used cooking oil and uses it to make electricity for the business.... smart guy.

[slngsht]

many moons ago, near the beginning of the Clinton administration, I was doing natural gas / propane conversion. Business was decent, and with gas prices "high" (like a buck thrity), and Clinton pushing for alternative fuels, future seemed bright for our business. In addition to the normal conversions, we picked up some bigger contracts and some research projects including one with a forklift OEM.

 

Fast forward 3 years... gas was back to 98 cents a gallon, and the pubs damn near killed the Dept of Energy. With the federal government failing to meet its own fleet conversion goals, most states and utilities cut back to, and we went belly up.

 

I learned my lesson.