Twincam update

[leeper]

OK, I didn’t think that I would post this here (at least not for a while) but I really do value the opinions here and wanted to see how you all would approach this.

 

A couple of very wise people here suggested different options to help me individualize the Donkervoort and at the same time keep the classic look and feel. So I’m going to start on a project that is much more my size and it is also reversible.

 

I’m going to convert from the Dellorto carburetors to ITBs and update the electronics down to the crank trigger. I’ve gotten 4 quotes on the hardware and done quite a bit of reading, and so far, here is where I’m at:

ECU – Haltech

ITB – TMW

 

I seem to be looking at around $4K for all of the parts and I have an awesome mechanic to back me up when I need it. When finished the car will look the same from the outside including the side draft setup yet it will be much more stable. I want this project to take me a bit of time (at least six months) and I want to do it.

 

So, how would you approach this? How would you break it up into several jobs? Any portion of this that runs the risk of doing damage to engine will be handled by the professionals first but I want to learn (and enjoy) as much as possible. My guess is that I will have the mechanic pull and do away with the distributer (when I’m at that point) but for all I know, that could be the easiest part.

Advice please…

 

Thanks,

Calvin

Edited June 20, 2010 by leeper
mislabled

[SkinnyG]

I did something similar, but a lot cheaper. I converted from the factory 4AGE EFI to GSXR ITB's, Ford EDIS and MegaSquirt for under a grand. Your process shouldn't be much different.

 

http://www.gwellwood.com/project-cars/the-lethal-locost/lethal-megasquirt

[leeper]

Wow, well maybe I'm missing something (or have a lot of unnecessary stuff):

 

http://www.twminduction.com/Home/Home-FR.html

 

1.002800-4401 Regulator, fuel pressure 242.88 242.88

1.002800-8212 Filter, fuel, high pressure with 120.00 120.00

AN fittings

1.002800-8214 Pump, fuel, Bosch 442.75 442.75

1.002800-8215 Kit, pump (-8 in/-6 out) AN 102.38 102.38

1.002900-3040 TPS, counter clockwise, grey 110.00 110.00

1.002900-3042 Plug, for TPS 17.50 17.50

1.002910-3050 Bracket & swivel 75.00 75.00

1.002900-4502/R Throttle body 369.00 369.00

4.002900-4535 Air horn 55.00 220.00

1.002900-5801 Fuel rail Kit, 83-105mm 186.50 186.50

1.002910-4502/L Throttle body 369.00 369.00

4.002950-4500 Extension 40.00 160.00

Total - 2,415.01

The second quote knocked that down to $2187

 

That covers fuel only. ECU, harness and spark (Crank Trigger, electronic iginition and a whole bunch of acronyms I couldn't catch) brought me into the range $4K.

[JohnCh]

TWM isn't cheap. If you are looking for something off the shelf, have you considered the Twincam conversion kit from QED? It sounds pretty comprehensive with a DTA ECU, distributor block-off plate, crank trigger setup, and wiring harness. Not sure whose throttle bodies they use, but probably Jenvey which is pretty popular in the UK. At today's conversion rate it's less than $3k.

 

-John

[fastg]

Leeper, your logic is like going into a car dealership and ordering a car one part at a time, it's going to cost a fortune. Were a complete set of throttle bodies for a GSXR including injectors, fuel rail, tps and pressure regulator will probably cost $100, checkout http://tinyurl.com/2eqlbcu for an example. Your best bet is to find something that can be adapted to suit. I am sure there are a ton of web sites then people have installed fuel injection on your motor. One other comment TMW are a real high end supplier, good stuff, Haltech not so much, not a high end unit, there software is not know as being flexible and or easy to use. A set of throttle bodies you can adapt and a Megasquirt will work great. I run a Megasquirt on my Turbo Miata, works great checkout http://www.diyautotune.com/. But if you want to go high end TMW and say a Motec ECU would be perfect. Jenvey have a great reputation send them an email and see if they can help http://www.jenvey.co.uk/.

[MoPho]

I assume you're talking about a Lotus Twincam? I believe it is illegal in most 1st world countries to put fuel injection on such a motor. :willy_nilly:

 

 

That's a lot of money to spend for little return.

 

 

.

[MoBoost]

I've been contemplating the same thing for the Lotus Twincam in my car. I never thought to check QED, who built my motor back in 1985! I am going to check into this, get more details about the hardware. It would be a fun project!

 

I don't know about the legality thing, or if it matters in many places outside of California. Here in Michigan, there are no emissions tests and my car, regsitered as an "assembled" is exempt anyways.

[JohnCh]

I don't know about the legality thing, or if it matters in many places outside of California. Here in Michigan, there are no emissions tests and my car, regsitered as an "assembled" is exempt anyways.

 

I think Morgan was referring to moral law, not criminal law

 

-John

[leeper]

Ok, lets see if I can respond:

 

JohnCH - QED looks like a good option, I'll do so more research. Part of the problem that I proposed to TMW is that I want the side draft setup that I already have to work. The quote that they gave takes the total length of the Dellorto and offsets the difference with an extension.

 

Fastg - ECUs seem to be highly subjective, I'm all ears with the goal of doing it right the first time. In part because of the beating that I took on the last thread I went to TMW with the idea of ITB's but wasn't willing to give on the side draft setup that I have. Could I go cheaper? Yes but it would require more fabrication on the filter and possibly the bonnet. Kinsler was actually my first choice but at some point I did a sanity check.

 

MoPho - Yes, Lotus Twincam. Morals with respect to this car... Don't make me put the spinners back on! Return on investment - This is a seven forum, right? What's your definition of "is"?

 

MoBoost - please let me know what you find on QED, they do look nice (horns)

 

Thanks!

[JohnCh]

Jenvey makes direct replacements for DCOEs, so that shouldn't be an issue. They also have measured drawings on the site so you can confirm any potential change before ordering. As for people beating you up on the last thread, it seems that they convinced you that your original plan might not have been the optimal path -- think how much money this site just saved you! :jester:

 

What are your goals for the conversion and the engine? Are you planning on touching the internals? A properly set up fuel injection system will improve drivability and fuel mileage, but on its own it won't make much difference in peak power compared to a well set up pair of Webers or Dellorotos. To me the big advantage of going to FI from a performance perspective is that you can run hotter cams yet maintain the same drivability at lower rpms that you would have with milder units.

 

-John

[yellowss7]

QED built my motor, and if you can go the DTHTB route (direct to head Throttle Boddies) you will definately like some carbon trumpets to tart it up a bit. Here's a picture of mine.

 

Tom

Edited July 19, 2010 by yellowss7

[leeper]

John - While I appreciate saving money, I prefer coupons. So far I've posed 3 questions on the QED kit, we'll see what they comeback with.

 

As for goals, I just want to have fun and learn. Owner #2 did the rebuild and his documentation is both staggering and a bit OCD. Owner #3 summed it up very well with;

"Big Value Lotus Twin Cam, rebuild with “fast Road” cams and twin Dellorto carbs. Only the block and the connecting rods where not replaced in the rebuild."

 

I have no intention of getting rid of the Dellortos (or any of the other parts that I upgrade) and depending on how this project goes I will look into building an engine. Two setups - one old school and one new (Zetec so as not to mess with intake and exhaust locations). Well see how it goes.

 

Tom - I don't believe that I can go DTHTB and maintain the filter setup unless I build a fairly extensive box. Shame too, they are beautiful, match my colors (aluminum and black) plus with the weight reduction I could have that extra piece of cake that I've been eying!

 

Calvin

[MoPho]

MoPho - Yes, Lotus Twincam. Morals with respect to this car... Don't make me put the spinners back on! Return on investment - This is a seven forum, right? What's your definition of "is"?

 

 

Spinners? I wasn't talking about moral respect to the car (unless you have an original Twin Cam Lotus 7?), I was talking about the engine, which is a vintage engine and the carbs are part of the charm. While I was half joking about the "legality", I was not joking about wasting your money on something that will give you little return (or perhaps you are uber rich and it doesn't matter?), and I know a thing or two about wasting money on a Lotus Twin Cam.

 

This is a seven forum, right?

 

Sometimes I wonder....http://www.websmileys.com/sm/sad/533.gif

 

 

.

[JohnCh]

Isn't the intake manifold cast into the head on a Lotus Twin Cam? If so, the Weber replacement throttle bodies are as direct-to-head as you're going to get

 

-John

[leeper]

I was talking about the engine, which is a vintage engine and the carbs are part of the charm.

 

Where are these rules? I've looked through every manual that I can find and they are nowhere to be found.

 

Last thread I mentioned overhauling the car and that every part of the engine has been replaced except for the block and I was told that this is as it should be. Now it's carburetors.

 

Is this considered hazing?

 

The legality, isn't a factor here in NC and part of the reason I want to try this.

 

John - The intake manifold is cast into the head. My misunderstanding, to make up the total distance of the carbs (intake to horn) there is an extension. From what you are saying, I had it reversed and the extension will be between the TB and the horn. Next question, why wouldn't I go with a longer horn?

 

Calvin

[DeanG]

There is a conversion to Lotus Twincam heads where the cast in intake is milled off. This is to allow a conversion to Webber or fuel injection. I've see the conversion fuel injection. It was clean but not to my taste.

[JohnCh]

Calvin, the Jenvey TB throttle body has the same critical dimensions as a DCOE/DHLA, so it is a straight drop in for your current setup.

 

Dean, I believe you're thinking of the conversion to a Twin Cam Stromberg head. Calvin's car already has the Weber/Dellorto head, so no machining necessary.

 

-John

[ottocycle]

I have done a few fuel injected cars and whatever route you choose to go, consider the fact that the end result is only as good as the tune you put on the finished motor. The most high tech state of the art system tuned badly will run worse than a cheap system tuned well. If you are learning, the easiest part of the process is the fabrication and hardware. The hardest part is the tuning and setup. The more sophisticated your EFI system is the better your end result will be IF IT IS TUNED CORRECTLY, if not you will have many more blind alleys to wander down. I would wager a simpler system could give you a better result if only because it gives you fewer adjustments to screw up! That being said I would research your project from the opposite end. Find a good dyno tuning facility and talk to them. Find out what system they are most familiar with and talk to the tuner. While a good tuner will be able to set up any system eventually, you do not need to pay him by the hour to learn your specific system. You will be spending a lot of time/money with them so make sure you are comfortable with the guy who reads the charts and makes the adjustments. Think of him as your cars doctor. You need to have a comfortable relationship and trust that as the dyno time builds you are getting a competent job. Just my 2 cents.

Keep us posted.

 

PS> Check out Abacus in Norfolk or Virginia Beach. IIRC they have experience with English Fords but I do not know if they have a rolling road dyno.

[MoPho]

Where are these rules? I've looked through every manual that I can find and they are nowhere to be found.

 

Last thread I mentioned overhauling the car and that every part of the engine has been replaced except for the block and I was told that this is as it should be. Now it's carburetors.

 

Is this considered hazing?

 

The legality, isn't a factor here in NC and part of the reason I want to try this.

 

 

They are unwritten "rules" and again, it was meant as somewhat tongue in cheek

 

I have not read any other thread of yours, only this one, so I don't know what "hazing" you are referring to, but you asked how we would approach this and I am giving you my opinion/advice. You don't have to take it :chillpill:

 

I spent over $12k trying to modify a Lotus Twin Cam (and that was with keeping the stock crank, it was also the second rebuild of the motor after the oil pump failed with less than 6-7k miles on it) in my Lotus Elan and ended up with a motor that dyno'd at 170hp but never felt anything close to that in the car, it was nice motor but a huge disappointment given the dollars spent, so much so that I put it up for sale and bought a Zetec powered Caterham.

The TC is a fabulous and charismatic engine, but it is old technology that is not likely able to fully take advantage of having a modern fueling system on it. I just don't think that FI is going to be $4k dollars better (especially when the carburetors are perfectly fine for the job).

If you are convinced that it is the way to go, be my guest, but for +/- $4k you could have a nice 180-200hp Zetec motor with all the trim, heck you could probably find one with a transmission too for that and an even more fun project.

 

Anyway, that is just my take on the subject, you don't have to accept it.... :cheers:

 

 

To add; I have a friend who had an Elan (and a bit of a compulsion for blowing money) and he put FI on his TC after doing every other thing he could possibly do to it, it certainly was nice but it didn't make as much improvement as he had hoped (it was 180hp), so he gave up and put a Cosworth BDA (260hp) into the car. He later sold the car for less than he had into the engine. :banghead:

 

.

[leeper]

:chillpill:

 

Fair enough and my bad.

 

I'll go back to the goal of all of this (Fun and Learn) and elaborate for anyone willing to read it.

 

I have been yearning for a Seven for longer than I care to remember and the same for building a car. Last October I could see an opportunity so I engaged with Westfield distributors. I was lucky enough to work with a guy that was more interested in getting into a Seven than he was a sale and for that I will be forever grateful. After spending months researching I couldn't get past the financial aspect of dropping $45K for a box of parts that after spending a couple hundred hours working on was worth less than half of that. This is not a dig at anyone here, I have nothing but respect for those that built from a kit or less, I just wasn't (and still am not) in a position (financial or otherwise) to take on that many unknowns.

At the same time I found this site and a couple others that have helped me to understand some of the options available. I came across this thread and I couldn't take me eyes off of it!

So now I have this awesome car, I enjoy it immensely and hope to be as good a steward as the three previous owners. What I don't have is a project (more dangerous words have never been spoken).

 

It's not about HP gains or building a lighter car or anything of the sort for me. I'm not a junkie that keeps changing things every five minutes either for the sake of making changes (though I would argue that if all that you ever knew of me was this forum). I do however want to have some fun with it.

 

Cheers,

Calvin