class warfare?

[Mondo]

The top 1% has kicked the middle class' ass. Check out this video.

 

 

I don't know what it will take to fix it. But having the top 1% continue to pay less taxes then they have in 50 years obviously isn't one of the ways. Looks like the gilded age is upon us again.

 

Sorry for the negativity, just tired of the argument that the rich will work harder if we give them more and the poor will work harder if we give them less. I'm fortunate but some family and friends have been struggling for quite some time. And working a lot harder for the money they now get.

 

Ok, off my soapbox and back to 7 stuff

 

 

 

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[slngsht]

some food for thought...

 

That video is talking about wealth, not income. Unless you want government to tax wealth, it's not going to solve the 1% "problem". If I'm worth 100 million, but just stop working and make no money, what's a fair tax? Should I be taxed on my wealth? 10% every year?

 

What about the bottom 40%? Should government actually pay them money? or net zero taxes? If government collected significantly higher taxes from the wealthy, should it redistribute it to the lower net worth people? If this calculation is done based on wealth, and I'm someone who makes decent money but have zero net worth, should government pay me your money?

 

The biggest problem IS the government. Have you noticed during the same 50 years the government has gotten bigger and bigger? More regulation, more taxes, more waste? It's not a coincidence.

 

Think about the overhead costs you have to put up with when you open a small business - I don't mean a high tech business... more like your average Joe - painter, welder, whatever. Everything from licenses to taxes at every level, insurance requirements, etc... Does that make it harder to do business for the little guy or the 1%er? As a lower income person, you're just better off working for someone else... fixed paycheck, lower risk, less opportunity, lower economic output.

 

Remove those barriers and let people apply themselves. Free up the bottom 40% instead of worrying about penalizing the top 1%. That's always been the path to prosperity.

 

As for tax policy - flat tax is the way to go. The more social engineering is built in, the more complex it gets, and the guys with the money will buy influence to tilt the table in their favor.

[Automoda]

Here is the thing. In general, the top of the top did not get their wealth by earning it so much as by controlling government. Government is absolutely the key to the wealth of anybody that has a private jet. They fund the campaigns and have tax and regulation laws adjusted in their favor. There is no reason to have a million pages of tax 'law' if the 'law' was fair. It is a pile of exceptions, loopholes, and favors. McDonnalds is exempted from Obama Care, yet if I were to start a competitor, I would have much higher costs due to the fact that I am not exempted. Primary Dealers get access to fresh printed money while it still has value. You and I are the last to get it. Banks also get bailed out, while my company does not. If I buy a pack of gum for a dollar, I am taxed. If traders buy a stock, they are not taxed (which is good for them because most stocks are purchased by computers and held for under one second as they attempt to steal a few pennies from me by probing my bids at millisecond intervals). The medical system is allowed to "have no idea what something is going to cost" and only reveal it to me afterwards while I'm under duress. Tow Truck drivers are not allowed to withold the cost of towing your car and then shocking you with prices ranging from 50 dollars to 5000 for the same tow. The military industrial complex gets no-bid contracts. The financial industry shuffles papers, producing nothing, and sucks in something like 11% of the GDP. Money won by gambling in the stock market is taxed at half the rate of a guy slaving in the sun. One could go on forever, and if you looked at the actual law, it'd get to be embarrassing that we allow it to continue.

 

My point is that 99% of the ultra wealthy got it by being crooks, and most of them by tampering with government. America is run by oligarchs exactly like Russia. When a company has a billion share holders and most of them are computers, there is nobody to stop the CEO from gifting himself half of the profits as bonus, or crashing the company on purpose to create a temporary glut of money, of which he gets a percentage. In one year he can make more than he can spend in a life time, so who cares if it goes bankrupt after his bonus check clears. (The whole housing loan industry did this)

 

The rich-poor divide is proof of corruption. That is all. And as that divide gets about this big, back through history in every single (think about that. EVERY SINGLE) similar case, revolution and war has resulted. Its all fine to say "well jeez you cant blame the rich for getting richer!" but be aware that people you know and love are probably going to find themselves in a war zone as a direct result of the rich-poor divide issue. (Its already happening in parts of the world where food makes up a larger portion of the monthly income. But it is only just beginning.)

 

When I was a kid, the top of the line Ferrari cost 125K, or about 250K in today's devalued dollar. I see the latest one costs 4.5 million, and has a waiting list. The rich are sooooo much richer than before. The middle class is withering up. This is going to end badly and it seems strange to me that the lesson of history is never learned in this issue. Perhaps they think they can hide out on their private islands.

But I sure wouldnt want to piss off 7 billion people like they're doing.

[Mondo]

Slngshot,

I doubt your in the percentage that we're talking about... while we may have some millionaires here, I doubt we have any billionaires.

Plus, average Americans have always aspired to the "self-made man" and we often admire their determination to succeed financially. But there used to be a strong aversion to their descendants that have done nothing to earn their wealth. Now it seems reality TV has made stars out of these useless silver spooned pigs. And many of the younger generation see nothing wrong with living off their parents or grandparents (the economy doesn't help).

You can call it an oligarchy, aristocracy, netocracy or plain ol crony capitalism, but the longer it takes for ditto head sheeples to wake up, the more I'm afraid Automoda's prophecy is going to come true. Once conservatives see how they've been hoodwinked by corporate America their anger will know no bounds.

[yellowss7]

:troll:

[JohnK]

Capitalism is awful, but not as awful as any of the other systems. (Churchill, and doubtless many others) It certainly is about exploiting one's circumstances - at the expense of everyone/anyone else... so what's the surprise?

Gvt is likewise awful but we get stuff like all the bits that iphones are made out of, not to mention the internet and GPS - and the circumstances it has to deal with keep changing. I'm continually amazed that we somehow have managed to keep things upright for such a long time.

[slngsht]

Why do you fixate on the white trash celebraties on TV? They only exist because people waste time watching them.

 

I'm not a one percenter, nor at the bottom of the pile. Literally started with nothing, and have worked hard.

 

Everywhere I look, I see the government killing the independent nature of this country - why think for yourself when big brother can think for you? The crap going on in our school system is maddening. That's the real problem.

 

For every aristocrat, there are hundreds of VERY wealthy SELF made people out there who've done it despite the government, not because of it.

 

All the wealth you see in various tech companies in different industries, or even traditional businesses from restaurant chains to retailers - they have nothing to do with government. To say that they're all crooks, is a gross mischaracterization. I do agree there is a lot of fraud in and around government. Hence the smaller the better.

[WestTexasS2K]

I'm trying to stay out of the politics on this forum. I don't agree with the broad painting of all wealthy people as having gotten there by being crooks or with government help. I have a few millionaire friends and one billionaire acquaintance. My father in-law is a multimillionaire he built houses all his life working 100hrs a week for most of his life. He quite working in his late 30's when the government was taking 60+ percent of his money. He decided to just stay home and shut down his construction business. He started it back up 15 years later when taxes became more reasonable. He is wealthy because he paid cash for everything and lived well below his means and worked his ass off. He has lived in the same house for 35 years and often drives his cars to 200k miles before buying another base model car often a Toyota or Buick.

 

My billionaire acquaintance is good friends with my cousin. He and his wife started oil well enhancement company in their garage about 20 years ago. They just were bought out by Halliburton for over a billion dollars. They got rich by developing a great product and apparently very good business model that hit the market at the right time.

 

Now Halliburton is a company that probably fits into the earlier description.

 

There are good hard working people doing everything they can to improve themselves. Some make it some don't. Some get it from silver spoons some don't. I just cant wrap my mind around why its ok for the government to take from the rich to give to the poor. I don't think that the government was set up to be Robin Hood for the country.

I know there are people that need help out there. Im all for helping the needy, but there is so much abuse of the system and no willingness to address this.

[Terrybryant]

The top 1% has kicked the middle class' ass. Check out this video.

 

 

I don't know what it will take to fix it. But having the top 1% continue to pay less taxes then they have in 50 years obviously isn't one of the ways. Looks like the gilded age is upon us again.

 

Sorry for the negativity, just tired of the argument car accessories that the rich will work harder if we give them more and the poor will work harder if we give them less. I'm fortunate but some family and friends have been struggling for quite some time. And working a lot harder for the money they now get.

 

Ok, off my soapbox and back to 7 stuff

 

 

 

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It is bad stuff and we must keep distance from such useless activities

Edited March 9, 2013 by Terrybryant

[powderbrake]

I don't care what the ultra rich have or do.

 

All I want is an opportunity to make my wealth without excessive government regulations or taxes or being forced to give it to someone else who hasn't earned it, via taxes or fees.

 

Less government = better conditions for all of us. Let them guard the shores and deliver the mail and get the heck out of my life.

[HOTTTCAR]

And regulate health care, insurance, banking and Wall Street for "god sake"

[yellowss7]

I don't care what the ultra rich have or do.

 

All I want is an opportunity to make my wealth without excessive government regulations or taxes or being forced to give it to someone else who hasn't earned it, via taxes or fees.

 

Less government = better conditions for all of us. Let them guard the shores and deliver the mail and get the heck out of my life.

 

 

Jerry, how can you be so cold as to say that you don't want our goverment to take your money and give it to those who haven't earned it. My God man, What would they do if we don't feed them, house them, give them cell phones, and now internet service. :willy_nilly:

 

I say ship them all out to California with all the other bleeding heart libs and let them give them their money. :troll::puke:

 

Tom :flag: Sorry to ship them to you Martyn, I know you are not one of the fruitloops.

[MoPho]

Jerry, how can you be so cold as to say that you don't want our goverment to take your money and give it to those who haven't earned it. My God man, What would they do if we don't feed them, house them, give them cell phones, and now internet service. :willy_nilly:

 

I say ship them all out to California with all the other bleeding heart libs and let them give them their money.

 

Tom Sorry to ship them to you Martyn, I know you are not one of the fruitloops.

 

Or perhaps we should take away all those services and ship them to Pennsylvania so they can sleep and shit on your lawn, piss on your doorstep, then rob your house when you go out http://www.websmileys.com/sm/happy/050.gif

 

Cons are so myopic, you never seem to grasp that taking away these services is just going to shift the problem in a different direction. It's naive to think that these people are going to just go out and get jobs if you take away the services

 

http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3116/2319117968_408daeba76_z.jpg

 

 

 

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[yellowss7]

Thats why we in Pennsylvania cling to our bibles and our Guns to prevent that from happening, fruitloops. :seeya:

[MoPho]

Thats why we in Pennsylvania cling to our bibles and our Guns to prevent that from happening, fruitloops. :seeya:

 

 

You cling to a fairy tale and you call us "fruitloops"....? Yeah, ok

 

 

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[Kitcat]

Name calling aside, I think one of the points of the original poster was the tax burden is unevenly distributed. Some with mega-wealth pay a much smaller tax % than working- stiffs like me (my combined state, local, fed, FICA, Medicare marginal rate is 45% of gross). Others, much richer than I, pay 4.5%.

 

Whether the gummit really needs so much $ is a separate issue.

[locost7018]

Kitcat I think you need a new accountant!!!!!!

[slomove]

Fun thread. This forum is sometimes so docile. Since *** left people are just talking about cars :sadangel:

 

Anyway, I think I am neither an F-loop nor a B-thumper but i do live in California. To make it worse I come from socialist Europe :willy_nilly:

 

I am just seeing the (I believe undisputable) trend that most gains of income over the last 2 or 3 decades ended up in the pockets of the rich. Middle and lower incomes saw a stagnation or decline of inflation corrected income and personal wealth. I do not believe this as a healthy trend. It surely has many reasons among them the move of higher paying jobs to other countries and, well, if the top dog eats more of the bone there is less left for the rest of the pack. Example, if the deadbeat CEO of a company with 50,000 employees gets a 50 million golden parachute, everybody else get stiffed with a $1000 setback. Or maybe the shareholders (that might be your pension fund) gets stiffed.

 

While I despise the folks on a voluntary welfare career and would kick them out in a second, I understand some just don't get a job anymore (too old, too sick). But in terms of the country's financial shortfall this is comparably just peanuts and complaining about welfare recipients means actively disregarding the bigger issues (spending for SS, Medicare, and Military). If they don't fix that and probably have everybody cough up some more money we will keep going with this mess forever.

Edited March 9, 2013 by slomove

[WestTexasS2K]

I'm not sure it can last forever.

I wonder how the modernization of production process that eliminates the need for people in the last decade has done to the middle income famlies. I read an article where China is losing manufacturing jobs at a high rate due to the modernization at their factories.

[slomove]

I'm not sure it can last forever.

I wonder how the modernization of production process that eliminates the need for people in the last decade has done to the middle income famlies. I read an article where China is losing manufacturing jobs at a high rate due to the modernization at their factories.

 

I Germany they call it "Structural Unemployment". That is, the economy is doing great, most people make good money, there is reasonable growth, but there is just not enough work for everybody because of automation and job export. It has not been so bad here because the US allow for some more spread of income and there are still lower-income jobs that are feasible (maybe not fabulous for the job owner, though). Very tough to deal with that.