Seven Ponderings.

[Davemk1]

Good morning,

 

My name is Dave and I live in Bozeman MT. A number of years ago I was active here and I owned a Birkin and loved the car. I used the car on the street for fun and autocrossed it seriously. At some point I wanted to make a change and have a bit more comfort during trips to and from out of town events so I got rid of the Birkin and got a 2005 Elise.

 

I've been racing the Elise for about 4 years now and have been doing well in it with a few state championships in the bag and while I like it very much I find myself missing the Seven with its lack of weight and a less tail happy weight distribution. Driving the Elise at the limit can become oversteer management and this can become frustrating at times.

 

So the short of it is that I'm considering going back to a Seven. My 'needs' with a Seven can be a bit difficult and this is why I am taking up your time reading - I'd like to get some feedback and ideas from those here with more experience. So in no particular order -

 

1) I will once again be driving the car on the street and racing solo with it and I need to be able to drive it to and from events up to 100 miles from home. This means I need to be able to carry race tires and tools with me. When I owned a Birkin I made a quick release rack for the rear that held my tires and this worked OK but I didn't love putting that much weight on the back of the car. I would have set it up to tow a very small and light trailer but the car had a live rear axle and this made it very difficult to find anything solid to hook a hitch up to. I have a hitch set-up for the Elise and it makes it super simple to do out of town events. I was thinking that a car with an IRS might have more chassis members to hook to that might allow me to make a custom hitch. Has anyone done this? I've attached photos of the old Birkin set up and the current Elise. It would really rock if I could use this trailer behind a Seven. Buying a truck and trailer so I could trailer the car to events is not an option.

 

2) I'm tall - 6'4" and I made my 1999 Birkin S3 fit very well with a few mods and while I could do something similar to a new Seven I'm less enthusiastic about making so much stuff. With the Birkin I modified things so that I was sitting directly on the floor to get me as low as possible and then I made a new roll bar that was 3" taller than the stock Birkin bar. And because I needed to drive the car in the rain I had a new top made that fit over the tall bar. It all came out very good but I'm not sure I want to go through that all again. So I'm wondering the following -

 

a) does anyone know of a type of Seven that might fit me in the car with the top in place AND a helmet on right out of the box. I'm sure some Sevens have more head room than others but don't know the details.

 

b) Does anyone know how much the Caterham lowered floor kits actually lower the floor?

 

c) I know that Birkin offers a tall roll bar option but they do not offer a top to fit over said bar. It is 2" taller than the stock bar. If I were able to lower the floor in the Birkin by 1" to 1.5" and get the tall bar it just might be tall enough. I would need to have a new top made again but that is just giving a guy money and while I'm not a wealthy man I might rather spend some money and save some time.

 

 

3) Last but not least - the Birkin I owned had a Zetec which put the exhaust headers right near my feet and this was a bit warm when driving 100 miles home on a 95° day. I see many of the newer cars use the Duratec and it has the exhaust on the other side. Do folks find this keeps the driver's foot well somewhat cooler?

 

 

I'm apologize for the long note and I appreciate your taking the time to read it and look forward to any thoughts and advice you might have. I'm not in a hurry to make the change and would most likely do so at the end of the solo season and either build a new car or modify a used one over the L O N G Montana winter.

 

Thanks again,

 

dave

[xcarguy]

I'm not in a hurry to make the change and would most likely do so at the end of the solo season and either build a new car or modify a used one over the L O N G Montana winter.

 

Dave,

 

 

Welcome back. What is the possibility of purchasing your old Birkin back from the current owner? You speak of building a new car or modifying a used car. Your old Birkin is already set up for you. Duriing the long winter, you could install a Duratec; this has already been done by Texas Motor Works and I think the mods are minor . . . just a thought. :seeya:

 

X

[Davemk1]

Dave,

 

 

Welcome back. What is the possibility of purchasing your old Birkin back from the current owner? You speak of building a new car or modifying a used car. Your old Birkin is already set up for you. Duriing the long winter, you could install a Duratec; this has already been done by Texas Motor Works and I think the mods are minor . . . just a thought. :seeya:

 

X

 

I feel silly for not thinking about that - good idea.

 

But from what I hear he loves the car and would not part with it (smart man) and since it has a live axle I can't see how I could mount a hitch to it..........so even if he did want to sell it wouldn't fit my needs.

 

Thanks for the thought.

 

Dave

[Croc]

Welcome back Dave! I remember your Birkin and its sale a few years back.

 

 

1) I was thinking that a car with an IRS might have more chassis members to hook to that might allow me to make a custom hitch. Has anyone done this?

 

 

I have IRS in my Caterham but looking at it this morning I did not see anything particularly solid enough that would allow a trailer. The IRS is heavier than the de Dion in the regular Caterham due to the uprights but there is only minimal extra chassis tubing. How many pounds do you think the trailer weighs all up? Just thinking about some bracing that runs from the rear firewall chassis members rearwards - strengthening the bars that sit under the fuel tank, but I would not think it would take anything heavy.

 

Below is the CSR chassis to see if this gives you inspiration - look at the parallel bars running from the rear firewall for what I am thinking of:

 

http://usa7s.com/vb/showpost.php?p=48426&postcount=1

 

I have no idea how this compares to a Birkin IRS?

 

I figure it is possible as I have seen this Robin Hood with trailer in the UK:

 

http://usa7s.com/vb/showpost.php?p=55321&postcount=3

 

Sorry but I did not take any better photo at the time.

 

From my recollection a Birkin chassis has less bracing than the Caterham one but hopefully someone can chime in to confirm.

 

A Stalker could probably tow a 5000pound yacht given the strength and weight of their construction :rofl:

 

 

 

 

2) I'm tall - 6'4"

 

a) does anyone know of a type of Seven that might fit me in the car with the top in place AND a helmet on right out of the box. I'm sure some Sevens have more head room than others but don't know the details.

 

b) Does anyone know how much the Caterham lowered floor kits actually lower the floor?

 

c) I know that Birkin offers a tall roll bar option but they do not offer a top to fit over said bar. It is 2" taller than the stock bar. If I were able to lower the floor in the Birkin by 1" to 1.5" and get the tall bar it just might be tall enough. I would need to have a new top made again but that is just giving a guy money and while I'm not a wealthy man I might rather spend some money and save some time.

 

 

 

 

 

I know a Caterham can. Blubarisax is 6'6" and we shoe horned him into my old zetec SV during the ordering process for my car. The lessons we learned:

- go for the tallest roll bar possible - there are tall version.

- lowered floors give you an extra 1.5inches

- tillets give about an inch over the regular cloth leather seats. Maybe another 0.5 inch if you remove the sliding track.

- more height can come from going to a foam bead resin seat.

- Caterham can supply a hood that fits. They are supplied by Oxted Trimming and either Oxted or Soft Bits for Sevens in the UK can provide off the shelf using a standard pattern if you were to buy a used car that came without a hood.

 

An off the wall idea - what about going for a SBFS sun shade type of top with the 2 sidescreens and a mesh screen to stop mist coming in on the back of the neck? What temps are you driving in?

 

 

3) Last but not least - the Birkin I owned had a Zetec which put the exhaust headers right near my feet and this was a bit warm when driving 100 miles home on a 95° day. I see many of the newer cars use the Duratec and it has the exhaust on the other side. Do folks find this keeps the driver's foot well somewhat cooler?

 

 

 

LOL....I scorch my elbow on the exposed chassis tubes running down the center tunnel. Mine is much warmer than my old Zetec which I thought was rather pleasant. My theory is the allow block radiates heat more creating a hotter pedal box/cockpit area.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Croc

[rss]

dave,

you could consider an ultralite. it has irs and a good track record pulling a trailer (one lap of america). exhaust is on passenger side. after adding a little insulation and sealing up my pedal box, the cockpit on mine is very tolerable. i suspect you would fit okay. with tilletts my butt is about 1 cm above the floor pan.

the only issue would be wet weather. you would need to fit a full windshield and sort out a top.

[Davemk1]

Welcome back Dave! I remember your Birkin and its sale a few years back.

 

 

 

I have IRS in my Caterham but looking at it this morning I did not see anything particularly solid enough that would allow a trailer. The IRS is heavier than the de Dion in the regular Caterham due to the uprights but there is only minimal extra chassis tubing. How many pounds do you think the trailer weighs all up? Just thinking about some bracing that runs from the rear firewall chassis members rearwards - strengthening the bars that sit under the fuel tank, but I would not think it would take anything heavy.

 

Below is the CSR chassis to see if this gives you inspiration - look at the parallel bars running from the rear firewall for what I am thinking of:

 

http://usa7s.com/vb/showpost.php?p=48426&postcount=1

 

I have no idea how this compares to a Birkin IRS?

 

I figure it is possible as I have seen this Robin Hood with trailer in the UK:

 

http://usa7s.com/vb/showpost.php?p=55321&postcount=3

 

Sorry but I did not take any better photo at the time.

 

From my recollection a Birkin chassis has less bracing than the Caterham one but hopefully someone can chime in to confirm.

 

A Stalker could probably tow a 5000pound yacht given the strength and weight of their construction :rofl:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I know a Caterham can. Blubarisax is 6'6" and we shoe horned him into my old zetec SV during the ordering process for my car. The lessons we learned:

- go for the tallest roll bar possible - there are tall version.

- lowered floors give you an extra 1.5inches

- tillets give about an inch over the regular cloth leather seats. Maybe another 0.5 inch if you remove the sliding track.

- more height can come from going to a foam bead resin seat.

- Caterham can supply a hood that fits. They are supplied by Oxted Trimming and either Oxted or Soft Bits for Sevens in the UK can provide off the shelf using a standard pattern if you were to buy a used car that came without a hood.

 

An off the wall idea - what about going for a SBFS sun shade type of top with the 2 sidescreens and a mesh screen to stop mist coming in on the back of the neck? What temps are you driving in?

 

 

 

 

LOL....I scorch my elbow on the exposed chassis tubes running down the center tunnel. Mine is much warmer than my old Zetec which I thought was rather pleasant. My theory is the allow block radiates heat more creating a hotter pedal box/cockpit area.

 

 

Thanks so much for the reply and your ideas/thoughts.

 

Here are a few thoughts/responses/answers/questions -

 

Like I said my Birkin had a live axle and there was nothing to hook to but I know a guy with an IRS Birkin and there is a lot of solid looking stuff that the Suby diff bolts to and it seems to locate the diff fore/aft as well as sideways with a descent load path. This is what made me think I might be able to make a hitch mount. The trailer and tires I tow behind the Elise is less than 300 lbs in total and the tongue weight is about 30 pounds. The tongue weight is a none issue and it would just be braking loads that would be the big deal for the hitch.

 

I didn't know that Caterham offers a tall bar and hood. Good info I'll need to look into. Most Caterhams are outside my cost comfort range (I want to remain married) but maybe I could afford a used one and then lower the floor, put a tall bar and hood on it. That might work.

 

Living in Montana has many advantages but it is far from temperate! During race season the temps in the morning can be in the upper 20's and the highs in the afternoon can be in the mid 90's. Not usually on the same day of course but a 50° swing is common with the altitude and very dry air. But 20's to 90's over a season certainly. I also need it to be able to fit full weather gear not only to stay warm but to stay dry during afternoon storms on the way home from events so a shade top wouldn't be enough I'm afraid.

 

Does anyone here have a Caterham with a lowered seat and tall bar? If so a few simple measurements would help me out a lot.

 

Thanks again,

 

Dave

[Davemk1]

dave,

you could consider an ultralite. it has irs and a good track record pulling a trailer (one lap of america). exhaust is on passenger side. after adding a little insulation and sealing up my pedal box, the cockpit on mine is very tolerable. i suspect you would fit okay. with tilletts my butt is about 1 cm above the floor pan.

the only issue would be wet weather. you would need to fit a full windshield and sort out a top.

 

I had though of the same thing...........cool car. I don't think they offer a full weather gear option though. Years ago they had photos of one and I'm not sure humans would have fit in the car.

 

Does anyone have a ultralite with full weather gear?

 

dave

[rss]

I had though of the same thing...........cool car. I don't think they offer a full weather gear option though. Years ago they had photos of one and I'm not sure humans would have fit in the car.

 

Does anyone have a ultralite with full weather gear?

 

dave

 

yeah i've seen pictures too but haven't seen one in the flesh. i'm sure someone else will chime in here. but the design of the bonnet and windscreens doesn't lend itself to an easy solution for foul weather gear.

[Croc]

 

Does anyone here have a Caterham with a lowered seat and tall bar? If so a few simple measurements would help me out a lot.

 

I am now 120 miles away from my car otherwise I could measure it up for you. You could look for measurements of a regular Caterham with a the standard cloth/leather seat with a regular roll bar and then add 1.25 for the lowered floor (something that can be added to a car if it does not have it already). If I recall correctly it was then another 1.25" for the regular to tall roll bar difference (again an easy switch over and can be ordered from Caterham UK directly. The height differential for the regular to tall track day bar (with diagonal bracing) can be confirmed easily with a call to Caterham UK parts.). If that does not give you enough clearance then you can switch to a resin bead seat base or tillets for an extra 1-1.25 inches.

 

So if no one has a tall roll bar with lowered floors car available on this forum this gives you a way to roughly compute the heights from someone who has a car handy with the different specs. You also may want to pm Karl (Blubarisax) and ask about his experiences as he is the tallest member on this forum I know of with a seven.

[Davemk1]

Anyone know if the WCM Ultralite guys are still in biz? I googled them and the site is down.

 

dave

[xcarguy]

Loren Edwards

(325) 650-7049

He's the man, aka WestTexasS2K on this sight.

[slomove]

Hey Dave, welcome back. I was wondering how long that may take.... ;-)

 

Assuming you would stay with a Birkin (or a regular Caterham):

 

- You could devise a removable hitch bracket/frame that connects to the lower chassis tubes and the roll bar stays on top. That should give enough strength for a lightweight trailer.

- It is pretty easy to lower the floor on a Birkin. I did it and alt least another one was done by previous Birkin owner "Soareyes". Just cut out the slider rails for the seats and a hole in the floor, fold a shallow aluminum pan and rivet it in. Did not take me more than a weekend. Then mount any racing seat.

- as for weather protection I don't have a full hood for many years, just the half-hood or bikini top. Together with wide wind deflectors it provides good protection from short showers. For heavy long time rain you need to put on a light rain jacket anyway. The atomized water mist in the air is going everywhere and will soak you after a while. For any serious rain you will need wipers. The tiny ones on a Birkin look pitiful but work quite well. I am not sure if Stalker and Ultralight offer them at all? Last year we went across Tioga Pass in heavy rain and hail for an hour and the 2 Seveneers going with us without wipers were completely blinded and a bit stressed out after that.

[Mondo]

I bought the full weather kit for my ultra-lite (2008) but have never put in on (I use the windscreen). I don't have a heater, though I have plenty of heat coming in from my footwell. I did notice that I would have to unsnap the rear of the top to get to the gas tank, would be kind of a pain.

The doors are kind of unique as they are part of the top... the snaps down the side of the windshield form the door hinge, not sure how it closes or how weather tight it would be.

I really just want a top for shade (spoiled Californian).

[Boxologist]

Time for the tow rig, and let Del dream up something for your autoX needs. Maybe even keep the Elise for puttering around on the street?

[Kitcat]

Ditto Boxologist's comment. And many tow vehicles are 4x4 and great in the winter.

 

Birkin claims its new, larger model is on its way to USA, perhaps a call to Dick Brink is in order? Based on personal experience, I wld not have them build it tho.

 

It is a huge engineering exercise to switch from Zetec to Duratec wiring, ECU, exhaust on opposite side). Not impossible but a PITA. My Duratec Birkin was built that way. It was cooler, quieter. And very fast.

 

Happy hunting.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Kitcat

[Davemk1]

Thanks for chiming in gents -

 

I'm pretty darn sure I will never own a tow vehicle and certainly not a 4x4. I've live in snow country and the mountains most of my life and in my experience nothing is worse in the snow than a tall heavy vehicle. I drive a Jetta TDi wagon with studded snows in the winter and you drive past all the trucks and SUV's stuck on the side of the road to get to the ski area. So any Seven will be driven to events.

 

I will definitely need full weather gear for the car. 100 mile drives in temps in the low 30's without it is just ridiculously cold. It's damn cold even with the gear and without it it would be undoable. It looks like the weather gear on the Ultralite might be emergency use only and not something I'd want to deal with for longer drives.

 

I've traded notes with Mr. Brink and he told me of the new larger Birkin. I'd rather stay with the smaller car if I could. If there is no other way to get into a Seven the larger car might make sense but it will not fun in solo as the smaller car would be. That and I don't think I want to be one of the first to buy a new model - i think I'd like to be sure the bugs are fully sorted before I plunk my money down.

 

I think I will just need to find some folks who can get some floor to roll bar measurements from their cars and then take the leap from there.

 

Dave

[jlumba81]

Can't you put a tow hitch on the Jetta TDi wagon and tow a 7 on a lightweight trailer?

[Davemk1]

Can't you put a tow hitch on the Jetta TDi wagon and tow a 7 on a lightweight trailer?

 

Maybe - it would really push the limits of the Jetta so I won't be going that direction.

 

I'll be driving the car to and from events any way you cut it.

 

 

dave

 

P.S. - I thought it worthwhile to check the manual on the Jetta to see what the tow rating is and they list a max of 1000 lbs. I'm sure one can go past that a bit and still be safe but 1300 lbs of car and 500 lbs of trailer would be pretty darn far over the limit. In the end the real issue isn't driving the car to events but finding a car that I will fit in.........the rest is pretty easy stuff.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Davemk1
added P.S.

[anthonyseven]

I towed my Birkin behind my Saab 9-5 wagon. If memory serves me, it has a tow rating of 3000 lb.

 

I do remember that the Birkin and trailer were so light that I hardly noticed.

[RGTorque]

hello,

 

as a tdi guy (i do maintenance and tuning on tdi) i would say go for it with the jetta wagon. depending on the generation of wagon there are a few mods that would help but its very very doable. there was actually a guy who came to the last Carlisle even here in pa with a jetta wagon towing a 7 in a custom made trailer.