CSR with non-Cossie Duratech

[JeffersonRaley]

Does anyone have experience with, or knowledge of, someone building a CSR with a normal 2.3 Duratec? I want to buy/build a Seven, and I think the CSR will work better on my (fairly bumpy) local track. Plus, I like the stiffer chassis of the CSR, and pushrod suspension is just plain fancy. But I don't want to spend the $$$ for the Cosworth motor (yet). I assume I can just drop in a mildly tuned Duratec (similar to the R400 spec). Anyone have a reason to think that wouldn't work?

[Croc]

Personally I think that would be perfect. The R400 spec is a great package and the CSR IRS is excellent on rough surfaces. While I love my Cossie 2.3, I would not buy Cossie engine again at todays prices and would be doing something like you suggest. You can mix and match the CSR chassis with any of the engines Caterham offers - very commonly done in UK and Europe.

 

You may not be aware but Caterham sells a lot of CSR 175 packages in Europe with a basic 175hp Duratec. Here is a video of one at Nurburgring and as you can see he is not lacking speed!

 

Edited December 13, 2013 by Croc

[Manshoon11]

I read a lot of the UK forums, and see it a lot on there. Also coming from an Elise, 200 hp in such a light car is very sufficient. I did consider a cossie, until my recent veterinarian bill of $3,000 and future chemo costs came forth.

 

Hopefully MSR Cresson is that "fairly bumpy" track you mentioned.

[JeffersonRaley]

I'm in Austin, so I belong to Harris Hill Road. Great track, but it is a bit bumpy. Looking forward to getting a Caterham out on the MSR long track. I enjoy Cresson even more than TWS.

 

My experience in the Elise is pretty much sold me on the Caterham. The Elise was just too plush and comfy. I've had the good fortune to drive a few different types of Sevens (though not a Brunton or Birkin) and they are all amazingly fun. To me, they are much more entertaining than any of the GT3s, Gallardos, Vipers, 360's, or even most purpose-built race cars.

Edited December 14, 2013 by JeffersonRaley

[bigdog]

"Bloody hell" The ring again? The ring has to be the most boring as well as the worst track for having fun in a seven. A supermoto (very tight) track or just a back road would suit a seven much more nicely.

 

Most of the places that rent a seven in Germany use the 175HP engine. http://www.caterham-cars-kempten.de/vermietung/startseite.htm

Edited December 14, 2013 by bigdog

[James A]

+1^

[BruceBe]

As the Northwest Caterham Cars dealer, we have seen significant interest in packaging a more financially and logistically approachable engine for the CSR.

 

Since the CSR kit includes the engine ancillaries for the Cosworth 2.3L, it would make most sense to leverage all of those included parts. Based on feedback at club events, auto shows, etc., it seems that 175-200HP would be a reasonable HP target, to keep component costs under control while delivering excellent performance.

 

We are in the (not so) initial planning phases on this project, and it would be helpful to get additional thoughts from this group on the commercial demand.

 

-Bruce Beachman

[lucky dawg]

As the Northwest Caterham Cars dealer, we have seen significant interest in packaging a more financially and logistically approachable engine for the CSR. ... We are in the (not so) initial planning phases on this project, and it would be helpful to get additional thoughts from this group on the commercial demand.

 

-Bruce Beachman

 

Beachman Racing was the builder of my CSR. If you wonder about his Caterham background or credentials, check this post http://www.usa7s.com/vb/showpost.php?p=38970&postcount=16 and thread from a few years ago http://www.usa7s.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4489.

 

Here is his display at this year's Seattle Int'l Auto Show:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y44/c5dawg/AutoShow4_zps848f798d.jpg

[Kitcat]

My current Cat is the subject of the 25 hours at T-Hill threads. I have had zero build quality issues.

 

I would agree that a major source of savings for these highly desirable (and expensive) little cars is the drive train area. Seems that crate Duratecs can be had for under $2K. And as Croc's Nurbergring post shows, with "only" 175 hp, they are capable of embarrassing much more powerful cars, even the mighty Porsches.

 

Also, a relatively cheap hp bump could be had via SC option, like Caterham now offers on its highest spec car (And which Birkin offers for about $5K), for those who HAVE to have the fastest car in a straight line. If the motor goes kaput, it's a relatively cheap fix, unlike replacing the $20-35K high horsepower na Duratec options.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Kitcat

[JeffersonRaley]

Bruce - That is exactly what I am looking for. An option for a mildly tuned 2.3 (or 2.0) with around 200 bhp would be great. Maybe cams, intake and a tune - similar to the R400. I'll want to put a dry sump on it as well.

 

Oh - and that picture Lucky posted of the metallic gray and orange Caterham is gorgeous. That's exactly the color scheme we're planning to do.

 

And I second Kitcat's vote for a SC option. That gives a good upgrade path for future horsepower at a much more reasonable cost than NA.

 

I've lusted after Caterhams since I first read about them in Road & Track 20+ years ago. Driving various student-owned Sevens at track events ramped that lust up to 11. My girlfriend has finally convinced me that the only logical solution is to buy one. She wants to track it too. So now it's just a matter of getting the current race car out of my garage so that I have space to build one.

[FE07]

Wow, I'll second this entire post. Have been racing a Formula Enterprise with SCCA for past 3 seasons (had a Formula Vee prior) but feel I'm spending too much $ for the track time I'm getting. Considering just going to track days and would like a CSR also without the Cosworth if possible. I like the cleaned up aero of the front pushrods and 200 HP should be more than adequate. Won't give me the same lap times as my FE but definitely more tracktime with less $.

 

Not quite the thrill of single seater racing though. Still thinking about it.

Thanks for asking the question before I did.

 

Jim

[BruceBe]

Thanks for the feedback. As Caterham 7 kits go, there is a lot of value in the CSR. As Caterham's newest expression of the 7 chassis, the CSR is more rigid, with fully independent suspension at all four corners. And with the pushrod/bell-crank front suspension, the CSR is very approachable with respect to track/race setup. To folks with formula cars this is obvious, but the pushrod front suspension allows front ride-height changes independent to spring preload. Therefore, we can corner-weight and set rake in the car, without losing front suspension sensitivity.

 

For the rear, simple tie-rod adjustment and slide-in shims are all that is necessary to adjust toe and camber. We just machined the DeDion ears for an R500 client who needed more rear toe-in. The same will be true if we want to change rear camber. All of that is straightforward, but not with hand tools, and certainly not on a Friday night before your track day or race weekend.

 

The request for an upgrade path to supercharging, or more naturally-aspirated power implies an open ECU platform, which is in-line with our current thinking as well.

 

I've attached a link to a video of a CSR taking on a 2012 Porsche GT3RS, thankfully, not at the Ring :-) While this is a Cosworth-powered car, the advantage is entry-speed, mid-corner momentum, and early power. I doubt a 200HP CSR would have much less advantage at this track. The 1v1 action between the capably-driven Porsche and CSR starts at 4:00

 

-Bruce

[bigdog]

And everyone was polite and professional as well. Very nice. I've been in Bremerton many times as my Father (RIP) lived in Illahee near silverdale. Great part of the sound region. Once I get back to Walla Walla from Germany I'll check that track out. Looks like I'll also have a handy place to order parts for my rather old S3.

Edited December 15, 2013 by bigdog

[S1Steve]

Hi All,

If I ever go down this crazy road again and buy another or a second 7, it will have to be a CSR,

A fellow forum member kindly passed over the key to his CSR, and let me enjoy driving his 7.

The ride quality was far superior than any 7 type car I have driven previously.

And the high spec Cosworth was excellent, but I don't feel it necessary.

I also rode 'Counter Weight" in the same 7 at a track day, and I feel that's were a CSR really comes alive.

A 200hp CSR would be the most fun you could have with your pants on. . It would be a great choice for a 7.

Edited December 15, 2013 by S1Steve

[Croc]

The one downside for a CSR if you are thinking of a lot of track time is that the standard Avon CR500 tires are quite difficult to get - you have to plan in advance to ensure you have tires when you need them. I usually destroy one set in the 8 month driving season of a year. In addition there are only really 1 or 2 alternative tires out there due to the tight clearances front and back. The rear tires are the biggest problem as they are such an unusual sizing.

 

I am converting to 13 inch wheels this winter - new custom wheels ordered and an angle grinder to reduce the profile of the cooling fins on the rear VW Passat hubs that Caterham uses on the CSR. This will allow me to run a range of tire brands and tires in the future plus slicks if I ever want to.

[Kitcat]

I would assume a base spec 200hp CSR (No big $ upgrades), 5 sp, cloth seats, etc., would sticker for around $65K? Hopefully w/cage and dry sump? BTW: what does "CSR" stand for, if anything.

 

As I recall, the Avons, in additional to being hard to find, are very expensive ($400 vs $150 fo a Toyo, etc.).

Edited December 16, 2013 by Kitcat

[Croc]

BTW: what does "CSR" stand for...

 

CSR = Croc's Speedy Racer! :seeya::auto:

[a.moore]

I don't know if this helps the decision or not but I'm running a stock 2.0 Duratec from a 2007 Focus. The only upgrades are tube headers, ITBs, and a MS3X ECU; the engine is stock internally.

 

Based on other people's dyno runs for similar 2.0 setups (and the fact I borrowed their ignition tables ), I'd guess the engine is putting out around 180 hp.

 

 

 

In a straight line it doesn't stand a chance against stuff like GT3s and 600 hp GT-Rs but it doesn't do bad for something powered by an economy car engine.

[Nick OTeen]

BTW: what does "CSR" stand for, if anything.

According to Auto Express:

 

Indeed the 'C' in CSR stands for Cosworth, which if you've any interest in driving is sure to get your pulse racing. As for the 'S' and 'R' they stand for 'Seven' and 'Road and Racing'...

 

Read more: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/caterham/csr/convertible#ixzz2nfLqu9Fd

[BruceBe]

We source Avon slicks that are compatible with the 15" CSR wheels, though more choices do exist for 13's. Keeping in mind that the CR500 has a tread-wear rating of 20, they seem to do OK for longevity here at tracks in the NW. Of course, track surface composition and driving style will certainly influence tire life. Price on the CR500 is in the mid to high $200's/tire.

 

Getting back to the non-Cossie configuration...how do folks feel about a wet-sump option? It would certainly reduce labor and component costs associated with engine preparation. However, it's probably a touring-only configuration.

 

Thoughts?

-Bruce