Caterham Mention in Car & Driver, Kind Of

[lucky dawg]

The good news: A brief mention of Caterham in the current current Car & Driver; The bad news: The R500 isn't a US model anymore and they didn't mention the base price does not include the drivetrain. Could be a major shock if anyone actually tries to buy one. Maybe Superformance can use this opportunity to contact C&D and get a real review.

Car & Drive.pdf

[Klasik-69]

To tell you the truth, the Superformance web site doesn't do a very good job of explaining what you get with the purchase price either. Then they list options for the individual models which creates even more confusion when they list lower powered drivetrains as options ????? Looks more like Chinese marketing to me. Stalker does a better job of laying out what you get and how much it costs.

[lucky dawg]

I have no major problem figuring out the Superformance site. I am in disbelief that they are charging $23,000 for a 240hp engine and 6 speed trans. All of a sudden my Cosworth seems like a bargain.

[bigdog]

I have no major problem figuring out the Superformance site. I am in disbelief that they are charging $23,000 for a 240hp engine and 6 speed trans. All of a sudden my Cosworth seems like a bargain.

 

Wow! That's a bit spendy for a rather common Ford engine.

I just priced the 270 HP 3 Ltr Magnesium engine & 6 speed trans combo for my old 2006 BMW Zed4. $13,800. HMMM!

[Klasik-69]

I have no major problem figuring out the Superformance site. I am in disbelief that they are charging $23,000 for a 240hp engine and 6 speed trans. All of a sudden my Cosworth seems like a bargain.

 

I was thinking they were overstating the prices but when I looked again, Yep, it's quite clear and quite expensive. The 480 model at $53K plus the $23K for the 240 HP engine coupled to a 6 speed is $76K without shipping and not installed. Get fancy with a sequential tranny and fork over another $8,250 in higher cost, and again not installed. WTF ?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my R300 but I would have to pretty friggin drunk to pay more than $35K for the privilege of getting rained on. Great thrill but poor value. You can get two (2) brand new LS3 Stalkers for this kind of money.:deadhorse:

[Kitcat]

240 hp isn't a common rating for a Duratec so it has some upgrades over the run-of-the-mill version. And the 6 sp isn't cheap.

 

Still, it definitely is on the pricey side since it ends up being in the new Z28 Camero league, and way more than a new 'Vette.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Kitcat

[bigdog]

I was thinking they were overstating the prices but when I looked again, Yep, it's quite clear and quite expensive. The 480 model at $53K plus the $23K for the 240 HP engine coupled to a 6 speed is $76K without shipping and not installed. Get fancy with a sequential tranny and fork over another $8,250 in higher cost, and again not installed. WTF ?

 

Don't get me wrong, I love my R300 but I would have to pretty friggin drunk to pay more than $35K for the privilege of getting rained on. Great thrill but poor value. You can get two (2) brand new LS3 Stalkers for this kind of money.:deadhorse:

 

It's called the rich fan boy (I don't mind paying double or more to keep the commoners from buying one, So that I can feel superior to them) pricing curve. The manufactures know this & price accordingly with the gleeful support of the well heeled.

 

An example is the Porsche 911. In 1965 a 911's MSRP was $6,500. Up tick the 1965 dollar to today's level. That 6,500 becomes 48,000. Not even close to enough to buy a base 911 @ 84K in 2014. Porches have increased at a rate nearly double that of inflation.

 

It's actually worse with the base 4 cylinder Caterham. $3k in 1958 = $25k in 2014 which is half what you would need for a base Cat with the Sigma 140 engine. Of course there are no added in mandatory safety, electronic systems to add to the original cost of the old seven like in the case of modern versions of older cars like the 911, Corvette.

[jimrankin]

About the added cost of the current systems not figuring in the cost increase. We didn't get air bags, energy absorbing bodywork, driver assistance, electronic fuel injection and engine management systems and materials in the motors/driveline that have them lasting five times the old "performance" curve. That said, cars we actually want have become quite expensive while the cannon fodder grocery getter has actually become quite a bargain to buy and drive.

Henry Ford had it right, build the same thing over and over on a production line with very limited number of parts shared by several types of vehicle and you can get the cost per unit down to minimum. Throw in robotics and CNC machining with todays mass produced cars and you can see why they are "affordable" for what you actually get.

The problem with pricing on limited production cars becomes apparent, PEOPLE and PARTS, and in some cases as noted, gouging when they can. Even with robots and CNC you still get to amortize the cost over how many parts the program/robot makes so more is (cheaper) better. And when you get down to making something in limited number, and in some cases "by hand" the cost per unit skyrockets.

But, if it was just about the money as compared to what you actually get anyone buying a Caterham over a new Stingray would be instantly committed. Actually, anyone buying a Caterham over an LS Stalker should probably be held for observation :-).

I guess it just comes down to how crazy you are about "7's" (or anything for that matter) as opposed to what it is actually "worth" that makes them "worth" what we'll pay. As noted at the bottom of all RNR's post, "crazy people drive 7's".

[rnr]

Actually, anyone buying a Caterham over an LS Stalker should probably be held for observation :-).

 

Thems fighting words

[jimrankin]

I like them all......but it's hard to take the Chevy out of this old guy.

[Klasik-69]

It's called the rich fan boy (I don't mind paying double or more to keep the commoners from buying one, So that I can feel superior to them) pricing curve. The manufactures know this & price accordingly with the gleeful support of the well heeled.

 

An example is the Porsche 911. In 1965 a 911's MSRP was $6,500. Up tick the 1965 dollar to today's level. That 6,500 becomes 48,000. Not even close to enough to buy a base 911 @ 84K in 2014. Porches have increased at a rate nearly double that of inflation.

 

 

I agree, it's a prestige thing that satisfies as long as you have enough wallet to match the ego. I've always admired Porsches and have wanted one as long as I can remember thinking of cars. The cost was always prohibitive in my younger years. Today, they are even less affordable for the average Joe, even for the well healed Joe. I bought my 2004 996TT for a really good price, well below market value at about 25% of actual replacement cost. Today a twin turbo cab like mine lists for $178K which is beyond ridiculous and likely enters the ludicrous realm when for about $58K you can get one very nice Vette that will almost hang with the 996TT. I don't know who buys a new Porsche, never knew anyone who did, so I don't even know if they might be a drug dealer or really rich lawyer or similar.

 

I always thought of the 7 as the average Joe's race car, a car with extreme simplicity and as few moving parts as possible and as light as it can be made safely. Now I see the $65K and up 7's and wonder if Colin Chapman's original design and intent isn't being ground down by corporate greed. Ok, a 6 speed gear box is more expensive than a 5 speed but almost double in price ? A 6 speed sequential for $13,500 ? You can buy it for a lot less than that, not to mention the engine as well.

 

Superformance is know for being very pricey. I agree their products are first rate in quality and finish but they may share the same superiority complex the Germans are noted for with their cars where they assume you will pay more because they built them. This is not a unique car and there is competition out there that may well stifle their sales. The Brunton Stalker is just one example, and certainly one I'm looking to switch to. I do prefer the weight advantage of the Caterham however, especially when I race it.

[xcarguy]

I was thinking they were overstating the prices . . . . . $76K . . . . . You can get two (2) brand new LS3 Stalkers for this kind of money.:deadhorse:

 

But, if it was just about the money as compared to what you actually get anyone buying a Caterham over a new Stingray would be instantly committed. Actually, anyone buying a Caterham over an LS Stalker should probably be held for observation :-).

 

Well . . . . here comes that bus again! :smilielol5:

Edited April 3, 2014 by xcarguy

[Kitcat]

Why doesn't Caterham just buy Stalker and slap a Caterham badge on it? (Just kidding, settle down).

 

Any one in a se7en shd be held for observation: its the most impractical/dangerous 4 wheel vehicle out there (and the most fun).

 

 

Cost is a killer for Caterham/Superformance. Maybe production cld get shifted to China?

[jimrankin]

But the bus tickets are free and it's usually an entertaining ride ;-).

[xcarguy]

Why doesn't Caterham just buy Stalker and slap a Caterham badge on it? (Just kidding, settle down).

 

:ack: Aaaaaaaahh!!! . . . . . . :svengo:

 

 

:cheers:

[xflow7]

It's always a bit hard to judge powertrain package pricing without seeing what is actually counted in there. Typically, the Cat engine packages include all the various ancillaries required for installation which are largely bespoke, low-volume parts. And, as has been pointed out, comparing the cost of a heavily-worked Duratec with bespoke ancillaries to the cost of a volume production engine of the same HP isn't really fair.

 

But even accounting for that, the prices seem steep - particularly in comparison to the introductory pricing that is listed for

 

$8,975 -> $17,500 for 180HP Duratec + T-9.

 

[url=http://us.caterhamcars.com//sites/default/files/content/us/documents/seven_engine_trans_options_form.pdf][/url]http://us.caterhamcars.com//sites/default/files/content/us/documents/seven_engine_trans_options_form.pdf

 

Having a promo discount is fine and dandy, but jacking the price 95% requires some 'splainin'. Would love for someone in the know to chime in on whether there was some special circumstance with those intro packages.

 

I'm in total agreement that Caterham has lost its position as everyman's super-car. No way I could have afforded one when I got mine at equivalent prices to today. And, as much as I love my car, at those prices I'm not sure I'd buy a new one today even with my more favorable financial situation. Looks like the 280R (which is rather close specification-wise to my 1700 xflow Classic) is $37k+$7750+$3k=~$48k if you opt for self-assembly. In 2001, I was all-in on my car for ~$26k. So, said another way, a car like mine has gone from Prelude-money to Z4-money.

 

Dave

Edited April 3, 2014 by xflow7

[bigdog]

I think it's mostly a numbers game. In that since a Caterham with 240HP can get to 60MPH faster than a Porsche, Corvette, Etc. It makes sense that they (Caterham) would up the ante at the behest of the well heeled. It makes it a win win for Caterham and the Egotist.

 

The egotist wins by making the Caterham unaffordable for all the commoners that normally could buy a Caterham and then take said reasonably price car & spank said egotist & their Ferrari's off the line in front of the hot chicks.

 

Caterham wins big profits from feeding the egotist's quest to quell any effort to show them up for less money.

[yellowss7]

Wow have We come a long way. Now we are being called Egotistic because we drive a Kit Car????:willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

 

I might give you calling the Ferrari/McLaren guy who doesn't track their car one, but then again, I have a neighbor who is a real car nut, who doesn't track his cars, but will drive them in the rain, Sleet, snow, what ever. He just likes all types of cars, from a ratty old TR8 to a R8V10 roadster, and a Fisker. And his newest addition, a gorgeous Blue new Stingray is just phenomenal.

 

Those of you coming to the NJMP 7's gathering in July will quickly conclude that you would be hard pressed to call any of us egotistic just because we drive a 7 or a Caterham. They are KIT CARS!!!! At the drivers meetings we are routinely ridiculed in good nature by the Porker, Vette and GTR drivers. Well maybe the GTR drivers really mean it. :smash:

 

I agree that the pricing has gotten to the point that a Vette is a better deal. But then again as KitCat said, we ARE CRAZY.

 

Tom

Edited April 3, 2014 by yellowss7

[CASwede]

I am quite enjoying my pre-owned Zetec, which will suffer very little from any noticeable depreciation. I convinced my wife that I had simply purchased the opportunity to perform a never ending stream of maintenance and upgrades, which is likely true of newer and older cars alike. But the rich often lack the patience and interest in the cars required to find a quality used machine. Their $70k trophy will be my affordable toy in a few years after they they lose interest. Caterham makes money, the rich enjoy their Simon Cowell moment, and enthusiasts are treated to a wealth of cast-aside super models. We all win.

[bigdog]

Wow have We come a long way. Now we are being called Egotistic because we drive a Kit Car????:willy_nilly::willy_nilly:

 

That's not what I'm saying at all.

 

I talk of the recent universal aligning of the very rich non petrol head types and the car manufactures ability to obtain customer info data bases in an instant & the world wide press that Caterham got from top gear. The stars have met in a perfect conjunction. The high end auto makers have taken advantage (rightly so I might add) of the egotistic sort that would take umbrage at having a car that a lowly commoner could buy that just beat their Ferrari from the stop light.

 

I surmise that if the Caterham was heavy enough and or didn't have the super powerful engine selection that enable them to beat the ultra high end super cars. The rich guys wouldn't bother with them, As without the super fast world beating acceleration. What would attract the egotistic rich guy to a Caterham? A car that won't keep you dry, Warm. Won't let you go shopping, Is difficult to pack for and take on holidays with out meticulous planing. Won't let you pass a petrol stand. In fact. Out west one might need a fuel can.

 

Minus the ultra fast factor that attracted the likes of Simon Cowell & his ilk. Our Caterham's would still be in the $30,000-$40,000 zone all in ready to drive.