So how come no "American or Canadian" light weight 7?

[jimrankin]

With all due respect to Loren at WCM, a helpful and generally nice guy, there isn't really anyone here in the USA/Canada currently actually producing a competitor to the Caterhams or other 7 clone cars being produced abroad. Don't get me wrong, Stalkers are great cars, especially for the money, but they are kind of over the top as far as being a cheap light weight fun toy.

Even though producing anything in the US is a lot more difficult (Government, EPA, cost of labor and a score of other problems) than in some other countries it seems that with the prices I see for new 7 imports it should be possible.

With the advent of computer aided design and CNC machining the development of a new product isn't quite the long and expensive trial and error process it once was. Since these cars (7's) were always meant to be sold as "kits" there aren't the same super costly government regulations, testing and standards that keep "new" stand alone manufacturers of mass produced cars from entering the fray. I wouldn't want to guess how much it cost Tesla to get through all that but having worked on their Palo Alto and Fremont facilities I can see why there aren't more start up "production cars" hitting the market.

Hopefully Loren will someday put out more S2K kits, or even better, a Gen 2 lightweight with a cheaper and more available drive train. (Hey Loren, design it around a Miata engine (or BMW I-4) and have room built in for a turbo or supercharger add later. Can't get much more reliable or cheaper).

Or now that V8 Stalkers are selling well it might be time for them to do something like an "entry level" but power/finish upgradeable later lightweight to get more people into the whole 7 clone driving experience without busting their wallets.

If I weren't already 68 and retired after running my own business for 30+ years I'd probably give it a try, even while being here in California, the ultimate anti business, tax it if it moves or if it stationary, is alive or just died state.

[powderbrake]

It seems that the cost of entry into car manufacturing keeps getting higher, and that will keep people out of the process. There have been a few new cars made recently, ie, the Atom, and others like it. The people who made the three wheeler got hammered in Texas, as has Factory 5 and others who made a new "car" and tried to sell it as a kit, then Texas says it has to be a copy of some existing car. If you really try to build a car, the government requirements and crash tests are brutal expensive to pass.

 

Manufacturing is a tough business to break into. It takes a lot of capital for the equipment that you need. Most guys today want to start up a tech company, where the initial capital expense is a computer. They want to write code, do apps, and sell the company for enough to retire on. I'm presently in a manufacturing startup with my son, and we make steel shooting targets. It took a lot of cash to buy a cnc plasma cutter, a cnc machining center, and the mills and saws and lathes and other stuff it takes to support the business. I did it more for the fun of getting back into manufacturing after retiring from 40 years in the manufacturing business.

 

I had a friend who bought a defunct kit car company and tried to revive it , it was an MG TD with a small block chevy. It never got traction and he sold the company to some other guys who thought they could make it work.

 

I believe the kit car or Sevens idea only appeals to a select few. Of Course the Cobras are the largest group of kits around, and have a great following, but to me It's just another V8 hot rod. The thing about the Sevens is the lighter weight, the four cylinder engine and its location behind the front axle, as well as the Lotus heritage. The Atom has it's engine in the wrong place, and for me, the Stalker has 4 too many cylinders. One great thing about the Stalker is it's continuing development and refinement, they have really upgraded since the first Stalkers and they are formidable machines on the track.

 

So, I guess it just costs too much to get into the car business, and there are too few customers.

[Off Road SHO]

I have a slightly different view of this discussion. We have a lot of kit car makers here in the States, they just don't specialize in road cars. They build offroad cars (dune buggies, sand buggies or rails) and most States have an exception that allows them to be registered and licensed for street use. These fabicators have all the CNC this and CNC that with all the tools to make small pieces of steel out of large ones and the other tools to assemble them back into "cars". The problem lies in the cost to do this versus how much someone is willing to pay. My first buggy frame cost me 900.00 in 1972 and used all of the parts off of a 64 VW that cost me 400.00. I didn't custom order anything to keep the cost down to where a recent high school graduate on telephone man wages could afford it.

 

Nowadays, it seems like everyone want to be unique in a car that only costs 5,000.00. Not going to happen. What we need to do is talk to one of the low volume buggy builders and see if they could put out a frame kit that used a Miata drive train and you could have rolling asap. The incidentals can come later when you are all fired up with that first drive enthusiasm. IMHO.

 

Tom

[bigdog]

I agree with all that has been said. But American's and light weight cars? We can't even leave a motorcycle alone. (can you say Boss Hoss) the engine weighs more than the bike it's in. American's are more concerned with noise and pointing out to the boys how much power they have under the bonnet. Doesn't matter that the 550Kg 7 has now bloated to 750Kg from the 454 big block in it. It's all about the straits & engine noise.

[Davemk1]

It's an interesting question and so far most responses have concerned themselves with the supply side of things......I think this wrongly assumes there is demand and that "if you build it they will come....."

 

I don't think this is the case. I think many a car builder has gotten into the biz thinking that they can't be the only ones that think a certain design would be really popular just because they themselves like it so much only to find out that no one feels as strongly as they do and that the phone never rings.

 

These are very cool cars with very limited appeal and my guess is that the supply and demand are pretty well balanced.

 

dave

[Off Road SHO]

Yes, And the high cost of the supply will keep the demand low. Build an inexpensive frame, earn your profits on change orders/options.

 

Tom

[Anaximander]

It's an interesting question and so far most responses have concerned themselves with the supply side of things......I think this wrongly assumes there is demand and that "if you build it they will come....."

 

I don't think this is the case. I think many a car builder has gotten into the biz thinking that they can't be the only ones that think a certain design would be really popular just because they themselves like it so much only to find out that no one feels as strongly as they do and that the phone never rings.

 

These are very cool cars with very limited appeal and my guess is that the supply and demand are pretty well balanced.

 

dave

 

+1

[toedrag]

Hi Jim, I'm not entirely clear on what you're asking...are you suggesting that WCM, Stalker, or others need a lower performance flavor with better fit & finiish?

 

I'm also a bit confused on your pricing estimates...Caterham's current US inventory shows a 360 for $57k, and the 280 looks like it starts at $34k. WCM S2k looks like it starts at $38k. Stalker has various kit offerings that range from $11k to $47k for a turnkey car, and if you want the 3.8L V6 NA, a turnkey Stalker is $37k. Over the long term, I expect that the Total Cost of Ownership for any of the US-based Se7ens will be lower than the TCO for the Cat. Besides that, both the 280 & 360 aren't really in the same league, performance-wise, as either the WCM or Stalker.

 

As an example, when I was making my buying decision, the conclusion I came to was this: Here in the States, if you want the best fit & finish and the Lotus pedigree in a Se7en, you buy a Cat. If you want the most bang for your buck, you buy something else. That's really not an insult to Caterham; I very much wanted a Cat when I began my search, but my brain simply cares about value & performance more than fit, finish, & pedigree.

 

Agree on the comment above about demand being limited here in the States. Buyers of a 3-season car are few, and only enthusiasts understand and care about power to weight ratios. It's just a niche market.

[speedwagon]

It seems that we all agree it is a niche market. In my case if I had wanted a "track car" it would have been a RX-7 fd with a ls v8 (cleaner lines and much more aerodynamic ) Wanted a track style T roadster but stumbled across a S1 for 16.5k with a rotary and bought it. Then rather than upgrading to a v8 or such decided to go with a turbo-ed rotary. still under 20k and all the defects are caused by me, lots of bang for the buck.. But to defend the US vs small engine choice- there is more thrill with more HP and HP does indeed win races.

[BusaNostra]

Through out the years....the real problem of the kit-replica manufacturer was registering the car.

The American innovations cannot be questioned in this area. it's the politics and greedy business that stops this small industry.

I've seen lots of manufacturer that comes and go from 1970's to present.

In 50 states, registering this type of car is "hit or miss".....most are DMV assholes states....i'm sure the big auto maker lobbyists are working hard to protect their products.

 

Here a typical American innovation:

Panoz producing delta wing car & selling it like a seven ---- https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motoramic/deltawing-unveils-new-gt-race-car--paves-way-for-affordable-sports-car-180629960.html

Edited March 26, 2015 by BusaNostra

[xcarguy]

Guess I’ll chime in.

As a Stalker (a very broken Storker :jester: ) owner, I will be the first to admit that when I originally became interested in 7’s, I wanted the absolute best representation of the car that was available on the market; a Caterham (my personal opinion); I still fancy the sound of a high revving four in these cars…..they just go together.

 

The Stalker, while I do love the car, will never rival a Cat—or a Birkin, for that matter—when it comes to cloning Chapman’s original design. In the end, the Stalker won out, not because of performance, but because the initial build cost was much less than the cost of a Cat, the build would be a relatively simple one and parts could be sourced on this side of the pond, often right in my own back yard so to speak. Prior to opting for the Stalker, I looked hard at Caterhams (even visited the Cat gurus in Colorado). I also made visits to TMW’s in Dallas as well as to Brian Anderson (WCM Ultralite).

 

As far as fit and finish goes regarding a Stalker, It will always end up being an extension of the builder; these cars are like finger prints……no two are exactly the same. I've seen representations where the fit and finish was superb.....and I've seen the other end of the spectrum; beware.

 

But, back to the original question of this thread; I too think it’s simply a very small market here in the U.S. There’s quite a bit more money to be made feeding the HP hungry appetites of power junkies here in the States. Personally, I would love to see someone on this side of the world create and make available (at a reasonable price) a 7 replica that rivals the original design and could compete in fit and finish with a Cat or a Birkin.

 

If what I've written here seems choppy and somewhatoff base, just keep in mind that I'm medicated, in a back brace with fourbroken vertebrae and am still wondering what the future hold for my brokenStorker . . . . . . . . :cheers:

[powderbrake]

But, back to the original question of this thread; I too think it’s simply a very small market here in the U.S. There’s quite a bit more money to be made feeding the HP hungry appetites of power junkies here in the States.

 

The horsepower junkies trend towards the Cobras and hot rods, many of them don't have any idea about tracking a car, or going fast around a corner. It's acceleration they desire, so light and Sevenish is not in their minds. The first time at Run & Gun (a Cobra sponsored event at Gateway in St. Louis) that a Seven showed up and blew by them in the twisty parts they were astounded. Of course most of the Cobras blew by the Seven on the straights., that is until John Meyers showed up with his LS powered Stalker or the original owner of the Stalker (forgive me for not remembering his name) showed everyone the proper line in his V6 Stalker.

[xcarguy]

Jerry, you nailed it; John Meyer.

[Croc]

There’s quite a bit more money to be made feeding the HP hungry appetites of power junkies here in the States.

 

Spoken like a true Stalker owner!

 

If people realized that you dont always need bulk power to go fast in the corners then we may have a US-seven derivative. But we dont as the hobby market is heavily biased to drag racing where you do not need to go around corners.

 

However, I think we are seeing the sunset era of replica/kit/hobby cars. Why would any sane business person you go into a market like that where you may only have at max a 10 year finite life on your business before it gets legislated out of existence in the US. It may even be quicker - look what happened to Ariel Atom in Texas.

[toedrag]

One thing to keep in mind is that roads are influenced by/constrained by the geography. Many (most?) roads in the States are essentially straight and flat b/c that's what the terrain allows. Contrast this with the geography across the pond where Se7ens have more mass appeal. IMO, this is why folks in the US tend to gravitate to straight line G's vs lateral G's. It's kind of the only way to have fun on a boring straight road, unless you do those sideways wheelies in SUV's as seen on the youtubes. In terms of a Se7en, a street car made solely for twisty roads is pretty benign on straight roads, which is why it's mostly a track/auto-x market here. Obviously, the exception is the mountain areas; you'll find a general population there that can enjoy a twisty road going street car.

[xcarguy]

Spoken like a true Stalker owner! . . . . .

 

Mike,

 

Are you feeling ill? You actually wrote 'Stalker', inistead of 'Storker'. :jester:

[Warren Nethercote]

To address the 'Canadian' aspect of the string's title, there will never be a Canadian kit car of this or any description because while Canadian DOT standards allow 'home-built' vehicles they specifically prohibit kit cars. Yes, kit cars get built in Canada, and are even sold, but if you get close to the contract between seller and buyer you will find it awfully hard to find the kit-car word - car parts is the closest you'll get. My COLD frame is a 'steel weldment with no warranty as to its suitability for use or for its condition' or weasel words to that effect. It is not worth going into the gruesome details of the regulations ....

[NVP66S]

One of the major inputs to my purchase decision is the commonality of drivetrain parts. I like being able to walk into any car parts store and say: "Gimme a set of brake pads for a '97 Miata" Or any other engine/clutch/transmission parts. Yes, I understand that choosing the Honda S2000 as a donor would have increased performance, but I am happy with the lower cost Miata.

 

A manufacturer offering something new on the market needs to ruthlessly analyze the size of the market and when will break-even come.

[powderbrake]

 

If people realized that you dont always need bulk power to go fast in the corners then we may have a US-seven derivative. But we dont as the hobby market is heavily biased to drag racing where you do not need to go around corners.

 

I saw a quote recently that fits this subject:

 

"Straight roads are for fast cars, turns are for fast drivers."

[WestTexasS2K]

JIm have I got a deal for you.

 

As for me. I saved the Ultralite from gong to the junk yard scrap pile since I love the car I didnt want to see that happen. Brian was not able to carry on with the brand for various reasons. I had hopes that I could keep the company going. I didnt want to build the chassis the same way they had been done in the past because the conistancy in quality was less than I wanted. The previous jig used was not the best layout and wasn't stable enough. Mutiple welders and shops over the years led to the inconsisntcy. The suspension geopmetry needs to be refreshed. I wanted to have everything done in CAD software and all the tubing cnc cut, bent and notched. I spent a significant amount of time working thru some of these issues and the cost quickly reached into the 80k dollar range just to get set up.

 

So now you have to acutually build the car. Which would require a few reasonably talented employees. You figure 40k a year in salary plus workers comp insurance, taxes, unempoyement insurance you are at 58k per year per employee. So now you have to 116k in labor plus facility overhead which can run 15-20k per year. Now you have to make kits affordable so no more than 25k for a full kit. This leaves about 5-6k profit per car. So you have to sell 27 kits per year to break even. Two guys cant build 27 cars a year.

 

So this leaves you with a few options. Hire less qualified employees and hope like hell they dont weld up a critical piece poorly. Cut back on parts and quality of finish. Raise the cost of the kits to 32k and turn key cars to the mid 40-50k range.

I just dont know if you could sell enough cars to make a profit. I could build the cars entirely myself with a helper and build 3 -4 cars a year, I might could eek out a 40k dollars profit for the year.

 

As for me I work 56 hours week at the fire deptarment. Since my retirement and health insurance is tied to this job I'm not likely to give it up anytime soon. I have 3 other business that I fill my spare time with which typically turns into 90-100 hour work week. Since each of my 3 small business make as much money of a good year building kits I can't justify shutting them down either.

So I do my best ot help fellow Ultraliters with spare parts and info to keep their cars on the road. I assist buyers and sellers in moving cars.

 

If someone is interested in building kit give me a call. I have a deal for you