Getting atrocious mileage?

[Vovchandr]

A few updates

 

Non highway test - backroads 95% "granny shifting" and cruising in 6th

39 miles - 2.6 gallons. 15mpg

 

Mix highway and backroad

50 miles - 3.2 gallons. 15.6 mpg

 

Stopped by a local domestic tuner, who after saying he's never heard of Pectel but if I can get him the tuning software with it, he should have no problem with it. (Are there are North East tuners that are specifically familiar with Zetecs?). He did say that my old plugs looked fine (brought them with me)

 

Physically installed the Innovative wideband into my downstream o2 bung. After talking with tuner and looking into it online, it will be off anywhere between .2 to .5 which is a fine ballpark for my current troubleshooting. Next is to find a good 12v source.

 

 

A major somewhat related discovery is after last fill up it seemed like it filled up too early so I gave it another solid click to confirm that it was full. After getting back into the car I saw that fuel started creeping up on the ground next to me. Looked underneath and sure enough I was dripping fuel.

 

It would run down the rear rail from passenger side to driver side and drip down the tow hook. It also ate away the rubber/foam pad for the tank on driver side.

 

Logical conclusion is that I overfilled and it had to come out from somewhere so I kept driving to lower the volume.

 

Pictures below are the leaks after driving 3 miles and coming to a stop.

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15370&stc=1

 

You can see the rubber being chewed away here.

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15371&stc=1

 

 

While I do think that overfilling specifically caused this and this isn't my primary problem, this is related and it's a safety issue so I started ripping into the rear of the car to check gaskets. Internet search revealed this isn't a specifically rare issue. All things considered, leaking gas onto the road isn't helping my MPG.

 

After realizing that Caterham has pulled a magic trick with stuffing the honey comb in the back somehow, I've decided to leave it in and work around it while it's angled.

 

My car came with an Evap canister up front and there was a plugged line out back next to the filler line. I figured the feed to EVAP is what was plugged but not so.

 

This line is plugged. Does anybody know what it does? Seems redundant.

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15372&stc=1

 

EVAP line actually leads to the little hole on top of the filler neck. I still removed the EVAP system. It served no practical purpose especially without any sensors going into it. Just another catch can at that point.

 

 

Current status:

 

Pending ordering new o2 just in case

Finding 12v to supply wideband

Get Pectel to communicate and datalog

Overfill the tank and see where the leaks are

Hooking up fuel pressure T fitting into the AN lines and testing pressure/FPR

Edited May 19, 2019 by Vovchandr

[1turbofocus]

I am in Charlotte NC and specialize in the Zetec and Duratec Focus engines and have been for 20 years

 

The 2 things about the guy you went to that worry me the most is , he looked at your plugs , you cant look at a plug and tell anything worth using after its been heat cycled unless something like covered in oil and I dont think you would have to ask about that , Second is he didnt know what Pectel is , Pectel has been around for decades and is one if not the oldest standalone ECU companies out there , anyone doing any serious racing/Tuning knows the name

 

Tom

[Vovchandr]

I am in Charlotte NC and specialize in the Zetec and Duratec Focus engines and have been for 20 years

 

The 2 things about the guy you went to that worry me the most is , he looked at your plugs , you cant look at a plug and tell anything worth using after its been heat cycled unless something like covered in oil and I dont think you would have to ask about that , Second is he didnt know what Pectel is , Pectel has been around for decades and is one if not the oldest standalone ECU companies out there , anyone doing any serious racing/Tuning knows the name

 

Tom

 

Tom, after scouring the web for Zetec/Pectel information, I've come across many useful posts over the last decade plus on this subject matter. Most of them came from your account. If I can arrange it I'll make my way down to you as I have no doubts I'd be leaving a happy customer. I've done the NC trip many times (Friends and extended family live there), just arranging the tow would be out of the norm for me, and I don't think i'd do the drive in the 7 just yet. Time to look up tow specs for an XC70 and aluminum trailers..

 

Edit: Just looked back and realized you actually help me make the decision on originally purchasing the car on the focus forums to begin with. My hat's off to you sir. You don't miss a beat :hat:

Edited May 19, 2019 by Vovchandr

[Croc]

Second is he didnt know what Pectel is , Pectel has been around for decades and is one if not the oldest standalone ECU companies out there , anyone doing any serious racing/Tuning knows the name

 

wow - how could a tuner not heard of Pectel?

[1turbofocus]

I would log the STFT first and get the wideband going , I can remote into your laptop and help. I would do this first and you might not need to make the trip

 

Tom

[Vovchandr]

Tested the gaskets by filling it up with the honey comb up.

 

Problems as follows:

 

1) Gas poured out of the "sealed" hose that you can see in the previous pictures going to center tank (still not sure of it's purpose) that I left in the down facing position. Fixed that by pointing it back up and tightening the screw further

2) Gas poured out of the fuel sender gasket confirming that it's pretty much destroyed. Will look into options of cutting my own replacement out of finding a similar stock replacement. 4

 

I would log the STFT first and get the wideband going , I can remote into your laptop and help. I would do this first and you might not need to make the trip

 

Tom

 

On the way there drove with the Wideband in place. Got average of 12 or so under constant cruising load, down to 10 or even 9 on closed throttle and into 13's barely 14's under acceleration.

 

I recorded sessions but this was a brief run to gas station and back and I havent looked into ways of offloading it just yet. I'm working for the next few days and I'll have time to give the car more attention in the second half of the week. The car did get upto temp. About 12 miles total run.

[Vovchandr]

Shot gasket and leak

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15377&stc=1

 

Just noticed the ominous "20/12" on the tank?

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15378&stc=1

 

Constant throttle (12.9)

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15379&stc=1

 

Idle warm (11.8)

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15380&stc=1

Edited May 20, 2019 by Vovchandr

[1turbofocus]

If watching A/F on wideband why driving you have to be sure to hold throttle 100% steady , any tip in or tip out will change the wide band reading

 

At idle if your front o2 is working and they kept the system ( Pectel ) in closed loop you should be seeing something like 13.7 to 15.7 +/- constantly switching up and down and up and down , If at idle your wide band holds steady reading either you have gone into failed closed loop ( many things can cause this , Vac leak , bad o2 , blown o2 fuse , bad wiring to o2 etc ) or who ever tuned it has put it in open loop all the time. Your closed loop is aa must to check first this is where good MPG comes from , its very hard to set the open loop for good MPG because it takes so much time to set every cell so its as close to closed loop as it can be , A lot of tuners on stand alones wont set up the closed loop properly

 

Would like to see a picture of your front o2 and wide band bungs to see how long they are a bung that is more then about 3/8 to 1/2 MAX will pull the o2 ot of the streem and you will get slow readings to none at all

 

Tom

[Vovchandr]

Here is the current update, weather and life events haven't been cooperating too much.

 

Open issues:

 

• Fuel pressure test - I have AN lines and no schrader valve nipple on the FPR, so I have to order some kind of AN T fitting and make it work. At this time not done.
  
• New OBD2 - will be ordered today.
  

 

Pending items

 

• New gasket on the way for my fuel sender.
  

 

Notes:

 

• I still have hard startup and it does smell rich
  

 

Start up video. Yesterday I actually had to start it 3 or 4 times while hot and it would gurgle and die. Had to get on the throttle on the 4th time to make sure it started.

 

Complete:

 

• Software is operational. After battling for hours with 3 laptops I finally got things to communicate.
  
• I realized that PiToolBox is not a piece of software that I need.
  
• Descpro is up - stopped me with these messages
  
• http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15474&stc=1
  
• http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15475&stc=1
  
• ToolBox is up
  
• http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15476&stc=1
  

[Vovchandr]

If watching A/F on wideband why driving you have to be sure to hold throttle 100% steady , any tip in or tip out will change the wide band reading

 

At idle if your front o2 is working and they kept the system ( Pectel ) in closed loop you should be seeing something like 13.7 to 15.7 +/- constantly switching up and down and up and down , If at idle your wide band holds steady reading either you have gone into failed closed loop ( many things can cause this , Vac leak , bad o2 , blown o2 fuse , bad wiring to o2 etc ) or who ever tuned it has put it in open loop all the time. Your closed loop is aa must to check first this is where good MPG comes from , its very hard to set the open loop for good MPG because it takes so much time to set every cell so its as close to closed loop as it can be , A lot of tuners on stand alones wont set up the closed loop properly

 

Would like to see a picture of your front o2 and wide band bungs to see how long they are a bung that is more then about 3/8 to 1/2 MAX will pull the o2 ot of the streem and you will get slow readings to none at all

 

Tom

 

Next time I log, I'll keep it steady, but I'm pretty sure I'll still be right around mid 12's when measured after the cat.

 

I might be able to log using the offload tool at same time too.

 

Thank you for explaining it.

 

Here are some pictures of the bungs/o2

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15477&stc=1

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15478&stc=1

[Vovchandr]

Updates:

 

Fuel sender gasket replaced and used the forum suggested sealant. Hylomar Blue Gasket Marker. Now I can fill the tank fully again and continue testing.

 

Data: 15 mpg city for a brief city stint, and 14 mpg for a brief highway stint. Followed up by a 19mpg 130 mile highway stint.

 

New development > Hard start up when warm unless I give it gas AND sticky throttle cable/ITB's hanging. Gets worse when warm. A blip of the throttle fixes the hang.

 

Checked/lubed the cable seems alright. This weekend I'll partition cable vs ITB issue by separating them and see if rev's still hang. I know that pulling on the ITB controls still had revs hanging but I can't be certain that activating that control didn't pull the cable with it and the two were partitioned that way. Also I find some very minor vertical play in one of the butterflies. Two set screws are on tight.

 

Here is what the idle sounds like

 

 

 

 

Next courses of action:

Take cable out and make sure there is no hanging/isolate it/check free play.

Inspect hoses see if there is any air leaking past closed throttle causing hanging revs.

Find out what IACV setup I have and whether I have TPS > check their operation.

Look into the play in the butterfly and see if it's causing the issue and maybe hanging causing air to sneak past it.

 

 

Side note: If you're ever concerned with lack of heat in the car, take out the 6 screws holding the pedal box cover plate on. Lack of heat will not be a concern anymore. Been driving around without it while troubleshooting and it gets HOT.

 

Pending:

New o2 has arrived and will be replaced.

Adapter for fuel pressure gauge/tester is on the way.

Edited June 10, 2019 by Vovchandr

[Vovchandr]

Here is the hard start up video when warm (you can hear fan turning on, I'm at operating temp.

 

It does start if I give it the gas while starting > throws black cloud of gas of the exhaust.

 

 

Also worth noting that my temperature has been abnormally low. I'm typically a little below 80, but have been close to 60 on the recent 130 mile highway stint.

[JohnCh]

I can't remember if this was mentioned before; is it possible the TPS has rotated slightly on the mounting screws and is no longer calibrated correctly? If so that would cause the map to effectively shift and supply the wrong fuel and timing for a given throttle opening. If you have the software connecting to the Pectel, it should be easy to check.

 

-John

[Davemk1]

I keep coming back to the coolant temp.....My money is on the coolant temp sensor or a thermostat being stuck open. It's overfueling 'thinking' that it's in warm up mode all the time.

 

dave

[Vovchandr]

Minor updates

 

Got the fuel gauge installed on the rail. Reading right around 50psi idle and while revving. From brief research seems a tiny bit high/normal, especially if I'm mapped properly for it.

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15525&stc=1

 

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15526&stc=1

 

Picture of the coolant temp, while at operating temp. I do have a lower temp thermostat put in, maybe I should switch it. Lower temp Tstat from my understanding should really effect much other than opening sooner but my operating temp should still be the same. It has been fluctuating overall. Normally it's right around 80, has crept up a little higher and this is now unusually low

 

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=15527&stc=1

 

 

As far as the ECU, does anybody know why I get this message?

 

""DESC does not have enough information to use maps currently in this ecu. If you have a different set of maps on disk, you may be able to reprogram the ecu with them. Do you want to try that""

"DESC could not find a compatible profile. To use this ECU/MAP you will need a profile for T2v1-15:TPS/MAP fuel TPS lgn"

 

I do have a profile folder "T2 V1-15 NA" with "ADABAPAC.AAB" which I have deciphered should work for T2 and is NA profile.

 

 

So far I believe my sticky throttle/hanging rev's are due to a 1 butterfly in the ITB's sticking. Testing pending.

Edited June 12, 2019 by Vovchandr

[ashyers]

I had similar cool running issues with my Duratec powered Caterham. The cooling system was an octopus of hoses heading to a 1.5" tube with three 5/8" branches. After looking over some info provided on this forum

 

(http://www.usa7s.net/vb/showthread.php?12165-2-3-Duratec-running-cold-in-03-Caterham&highlight=cooling+system)

 

and revising the system the T-stat now works properly and the engine maintains a constant temperature of 80C. I also ditched a few pounds of hoses and tubing .

 

If you are running cool enough to stay in the portion of the map that provides warm up enrichment you're going to get poor economy and not do the engine any good. Before you start replacing T-stats look at the routing of your cooling system. Maybe you have a similar issue?

 

Andy

[papak]

Unless you are using huge injectors, the Duratecs run at 42-43 psi.

[Vovchandr]

Update:

 

Replaced the o2 and here is the latest data.

 

City low RPM cruising 12.7 miles .493 gallons. ~25mpg

All highway ~70mph average in 6spd 30 miles 1.481 gallons ~ 21mpg

 

Average ~21mpg

 

I think I'm in the right ballpark now?

[Croc]

That sounds better!

[Slonie]

Updates:

 

 

New development > Hard start up when warm unless I give it gas AND sticky throttle cable/ITB's hanging. Gets worse when warm. A blip of the throttle fixes the hang.

 

Checked/lubed the cable seems alright. This weekend I'll partition cable vs ITB issue by separating them and see if rev's still hang. I know that pulling on the ITB controls still had revs hanging but I can't be certain that activating that control didn't pull the cable with it and the two were partitioned that way. Also I find some very minor vertical play in one of the butterflies. Two set screws are on tight.

 

 

I've got this issue too, I did some Googling about those TWM throttles (what I've got on my Zetec), and found Honda guys complaining about the same issue. One guy fabbed up a secondary return spring to get them to snap all the way closed. Have been planning to look into doing that myself, after fixing other things...