Can register in California - YAY!

[KnifeySpoony]

Well my 420R is dry sump so there is no PCV at all. The crankcase is ventilated via the sump scavenge pump back to the oil tank. There's a breather from the oil tank, but I'm not sure how to connect that to either the stock intake plenum or the roller barrel intake that I currently have installed.

[awatkins]

I wondred if this might be a dry-sump-related issue.  I suspect the referee would accept a hose connection from the oil tank to the air cleaner, but of course don’t know.   I have read of race engines that have scavenge pumps deliberately designed to pump at a rate that keeps the crankcase under negaative pressure thus preventing the pumping losses from allowing the crankcase to be pressurized, and I assume requiring vacuum relief valves.   These obviously would emit no crankcase fumes.  One line of inquiry would be to see how emission-controlled street cars with dry sumps deal with this.  I have a couple so will try to figure it out.

 

In the meantime, for this to be a real issue (as opposed to what the referee thinks is required) there would have to be a place on the engine that exposes the crankcase to the outside atmosphere.  Is there one?  If so, what does it look like?

Edited June 26, 2021 by awatkins

[KnifeySpoony]

Yeah, I was trying to look up some dry-sumped production cars to learn more but didn't get far. One question I have is if I vent the oil tank to somewhere in the intake, would it be to a place under vacuum or not. With a PCV system, the PCV goes into the intake after the throttle body, so the vacuum pulls out the crankcase fumes.  Then the breather from the valve cover goes into the airbox usually. I'm not sure what the BAR will want to see with my system. I think before modifying my setup, I'll inquire with them. 

[awatkins]

Talking to them is the best idea.  My command of all this is superficial.  I don’t think you can vent the tank directly to vacuum; that might mess with the mixture, which I believe is the whole point of the PVC valve itself, i.e. to limit inhaling of crankcase fumes to when it does not upset the carburation.  What I think would work is to put a PVC valve between the tank and the intake tract, but there might be side effects’m unaware of.

 

BTW I did look at the PVC system for a 70’s dry sump Maserati V8 as shown in its parts book and it looks to me just like a normal PVC system.

[TomSalter]

If you’re actually getting to talk to BAR and doing an inspection, you’re further along than I am. They’re not replying to any of my emails about my registration still :-(

[Croc]

5 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

 I don't think any Caterhams have a closed crankcase breathing setup. I am trying to figure out how to pass their requirements with my dry sumped 420R.

 

I cannot solve your BAR question but I can answer that the various Caterham dry sump crankcase breathing systems - Pace, Titan, Cosworth - are all open breathing with positive pressure, i.e. blowing oil into the breather catch tank.  

[awatkins]

Google “dry sump street pcv” and you will find many discussions of this issue.

[KnifeySpoony]

5 hours ago, awatkins said:

Google “dry sump street pcv” and you will find many discussions of this issue.

Everything i have read dictates that a dry sump system eliminates pcv. Hence why we have that plate on the left side of the duratec block. 

[TurboWood]

I have a dry sump and made it through the BAR in CA with PCV. The guy at the BAR specifically followed my setup to check that it was there. You can run a dry sump either way. People will run a closed system to creat a negative pressure in the crankcase, but you don’t have to. 
 

I just ran my valve cover to the dry sump tank and the tank to the air inlet. 
 

I’m interested to learn the differences between a new build and transfer from out of state for SB100. I built new and found the process reasonable. I’m sure other states are easier, but it’s pretty cool that CA of all states gives a path to run a kit car to 60’s emissions. This was a major driver for me to go kit car and sell my Supra.

 

Daniel

[awatkins]

Hi Daniel —

 

Thanks, I’m glad to know there is a known SB100-compliant solution for dry sumps.  I’m a little unclear on your layout.  Where in your system is the pcv?

 

I built new as well and did not find the procees onerous.  Until  this thread I did not know it was even possible to transfer one in, although I gather the OP’s car had never been registered, so hsi case is not really different from one built in-state as I did (after all, they don’t ask where it was built).  So the only real difference is the OP is not the first legal owner of the assembled car and that case could happen in state as well.  

 

I’m curious to know what happens if you try to register a “kit” car already registered under some other state’s version of “SPCN” or for that matter registered as a normal vehicle.  I imagine most people in that situation would simply start at the DMV the same as if they had bought normal out-of-state car, so the question might become whether the CA DMV ever detects that case and if so what do they do?

[rnr]

You still have too go through sb100 if you are registering a kit car from out of state. It's pretty much the same process as if you had built it yourself except that you list someone else as the builder. Will still need photoos and receipts for chassis, engine, etc...

[KnifeySpoony]

The talk on the facebook group is that people are recommending registering their 7s out of state, as CA is just a dead end...

[awatkins]

Which specific facebook group?

[awatkins]

“You still have too go through sb100 if you are registering a kit car from out of state.”

 

There are at least three different cases: out of state but never registered, registered out of state as special construction, or registered out of state as ordinary vehicle.  To which one(s) are you referring?

[KnifeySpoony]

6 hours ago, awatkins said:

Which specific facebook group?

The group called "caterham and 7 owners in usa and Canada".

[rnr]

On 7/10/2021 at 3:27 PM, KnifeySpoony said:

The talk on the facebook group is that people are recommending registering their 7s out of state, as CA is just a dead end...

I registered my CO-built and registered Stalker in CA in Dec 2019 with zero issues. The OP here is specifically having trouble with Caterham registration.

 

 

On 7/10/2021 at 3:41 PM, awatkins said:

“You still have too go through sb100 if you are registering a kit car from out of state.”

 

There are at least three different cases: out of state but never registered, registered out of state as special construction, or registered out of state as ordinary vehicle.  To which one(s) are you referring?

 

For cars that were built out of state you should be using SB1578 which is the companion law to SB-100 that uses SB-100 sequence numbers but covers cars from out of state. You can try to register a car from out of state as an ordinary vehicle but I imagine you would get in trouble if CA ever figured it out. An SB-100 registered car will likely also have better resale value as it can be bought and sold as a regular car in CA with zero risk.

 

[awatkins]

The SPCN rules as described on the DMV site (https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/driver-education-and-safety/educational-materials/fast-facts/specially-constructed-spcns-vehicles-ffvr-23/) state:

 

"Some nonresident vehicle registration applicants may be issued an SPCNS certificate of sequence when the out-of-state title identifies the vehicle make as SPCNS, homemade, assembled, etc. and the vehicle meets the SPCNS definition per CVC 580"

 

First of all, note the use of "some" and "may."  Second, if that is the only governing language on this subject then it may be that you cannot (legally) register a kit vehicle (or whatever) as a SPCN if it was registered as an ordinary car in another state, thus supporting RNR's point about the risk of getting caught.

 

[TomSalter]

I have a call with them to discuss my case on Wednesday. Fingers, legs, toes and eyes crossed. :-)

[awatkins]

Our thoughts are with you.

[TomSalter]

The call went really well, the BAR folks were genuinely really helpful. Each case is unique, so it was great for them to be open and listening to my specific case.

 

The issue is apparently now with the engine - it's a 310S with the Ford Sigma engine, and they want to make sure the engine itself is certified to pass US engine emissions. The SB-100 is to pass the extra California emissions, but the engine itself should have an EPA emissions label on it. 

 

I'm still at work, so I'm excited to go back and check (I haven't seen one from what I remember, and from what I know, the engine was imported from the UK so it's very unlikely to have one). Anyone else ran into this? 

 

-Tom