Zetec VCT questions

[Kitcat]

I think the Duratec also is 30 lbs lighter than the Zetec.

[Vovchandr]

What have you decided @Bartman

[DatsunRBZ]

My Caterham has the SVT engine with a 6-speed and I am located just across the Potomac in Alexandria. Let me know if you want to come check it out and see if that engine option will satisfy your hunger for more power. As a newbie to Sevens, it is plenty for me right now. @Bartman

[Bartman]

Hi. Thanks I’d love to come see it. I am out of the country this week but I’ll definitely give you a holler when I’m back. 
 

Bart

[Bartman]

Hi. Thanks I’d love to come see it. I am out of the country this week but I’ll definitely give you a holler when I’m back. 

The plan is coming together I have Raceline in the UK building a 250hp version based on a Zetec with heavy duty clutch mated to a Sadev 6 speed sequential, a  Geartronics GCU will manage flat out shift in tandem with an Omex Ecu, finally a 30/30 LSD from tracsport using the standard 7” Sierra diff. 

Things still to do include sorting the headers and exhaust, sorting the brakes and the dampers. 

My plan is to have it all here stateside by the end of the summer and then get it all set up over the winter. 
 

I’ll keep you updated as to how all this goes. 
 

 

Bart

[JohnCh]

On 6/9/2021 at 12:31 PM, Bartman said:

am looking to increase the HP to the 200 -210 HP mark, not massively extreme but pretty a decent increase and more than enough to scare myself stupid at the track.

 

21 minutes ago, Bartman said:

The plan is coming together I have Raceline in the UK building a 250hp version based on a Zetec with heavy duty clutch mated to a Sadev 6 speed sequential, a  Geartronics GCU will manage flat out shift in tandem with an Omex Ecu, finally a 30/30 LSD from tracsport using the standard 7” Sierra diff. 

 

Well that progressed quickly!    Sounds like you will end up with a beast!  

 

-John

[Kitcat]

Bartman: I have been fantasizing about chosing your  Raceline options since  I got my Zetec Caterham:). They have the highest spec Zetecs going. Adding the sequential transmission will make you extremely competitive on track. But race gas only, no?

[Vovchandr]

7 minutes ago, Kitcat said:

Bartman: I have been fantasizing about chosing your  Raceline options since  I got my Zetec Caterham:). They have the highest spec Zetecs going. Adding the sequential transmission will make you extremely competitive on track. But race gas only, no?

 

I'm curious

 

I looked over the parts list, what exactly sets them apart and gives them such high figures?

 

I in the meantime am window shopping around for an SVT head or a whole SVT engine. They seem to be pretty cheaply available around. 

[Bartman]

The head work is done by an ex F1 engineer. That’s the secret sauce I’ll post his site he’s an impressive engineer and it’s what gets them from 200 to 250. 
 

 

[Vovchandr]

21 minutes ago, Bartman said:

The head work is done by an ex F1 engineer. That’s the secret sauce I’ll post his site he’s an impressive engineer and it’s what gets them from 200 to 250. 
 

 

 

So can just the head be purchased? Their "240hp" head seems to be $1100 GBP.

 

Not in particular need right now but curious

[Bartman]

The head is done by ultimate performance Ltd. (Ultimatep.com.) I don’t know if they will sell just the head. For the 250 versus the 200 raceline add forged pistons and Corelli rods plus a few other upgrades but the real gain is in the head. 

[Kitcat]

I think the race-gas-only compression ratio helps it get to 250 too? I don’t recall it’s what it’s RPM limits are. Typically Duratecs can spin faster. I think the Zetec is limited by the relatively modest capacity of its oil pump.

The Raceline Zetec has its own proprietary ECU, or tune too-all  this from my faded memory, so???

 

Clearly it’s freer flowing head helps. I assume there is an adjustable cam, or a more aggressive cam?
 

As advertised, it come close to higher end Duratecs. I will be fascinated to see what rear wheel hp is. If it can break 200 hp, I will be very impressed.

[dallasdude]

As someone said, one of the weak links of the Zetec is the oil pump.  The gear sits around the nose of the crank and it gets hammed by inline 4 secondary vibrations.

 

You install ITBs and long cams, you create a power peak that is outside where you should turn a wet sump Zetec.

 

Duratec has a different oil pump design (and a better crank balancer is available that absorbs some of the vibrations).  Oil pump drives off a chain.

 

The Boundary aftermarket pumps for Zetecs.....the conventional wisdom I think is 7500 for short periods.

 

Actually you can reach the levels mentioned with a stock manifold at less then 7000 rpm.  With a very broad torque curve.

 

[Bartman]

Small  update and thanks to everyone who has contributed to my decision journey so far.

 

The engine is now being worked on from a stock Zetec base, the head is off for CNC and so it begins.

 

Raceline are telling me that 93 will be fine and they will map to that. As mentioned earlier, I will use an Omex 600 ECU. Flat out upshifts is achieved using a barrel sensor on the Sadev linked to a Geartronix ECU that provides the signal to the Omex for the initiation, duration and cessation of the cut, I honestly don't know if this is really a better setup than a simple fixed duration cut for the upshift but the cost of the Geartronix GCU is modest in the overall scheme and if it helps the Sadev last a bit longer between overhauls it's worth it to me.

 

The oil pump is uprated and with steel gears, I had wanted to use a Johnson oil pump but the guys at Raceline are convinced that their setup is good, they use a highly baffled wet sump in almost all their applications and I will start with that and monitor oil pressure and temps etc. as we go.

 

There is a small increase in capacity from 1988cc to 1997cc thanks to the additional 0.1 mm radius of the bore, the stroke remains at 88. The cams are more aggressive and I'll post the details if anyone is interested when I have them. I am waiting for a sample dyno sheet from an earlier build with my spec just curious really.

 

The Sadev is ordered with the ratios 2.69:1 / 1.6:1 /  1.3:1 / 1.0952:1 / 0.95:1 /0.8571:1

 

Lastly, I ordered a plated LSD from Tracsport https://www.tracsport.com/lsds  (page 2 on this link) I  also looked at Titan (plated) and Quaife (ATB), in the end I talked to the guy at Tracsport, "Steve" who really knows his stuff it seems, and, since I don't, his advice was very helpful   he has a very loyal following in the UK and lots of recommendations. 

 

So that's it for now on what's been decided, next things to look at are brakes and suspension set up, another rabbit hole to fall into. 

 

When finished it should be comparable to an R500 - we will see - -  but one thing is for sure is that the car will be way more capable than I have the skill set to fully utilize, so it will be quite a learning curve - but hey that's what it's all about.

 

[JohnCh]

Please keep the details (cam specs, dyno sheets, etc) coming.  This will be fascinating to watch.  From the comments it sounds like Raceline is building a new engine in the UK, then shipping it over?  If that's the case, are you keeping your current Zetec as a backup or selling it?  

 

-John

[Bartman]

Hi John,

 

As you surmise its a new build coming over more or less complete from the UK, apparently they (Raceline) purchased the last of the remaining  UK inventory from Ford of new Zetecs and they build up from there. I had originally planned to work with a US engine builder using the current Zetec as a base but as I understood the costs involved etc it was clear that it was more or less a wash. Having talked to Raceline extensively and given they have been so involved with Zetecs and Caterhams over the years their pedigree was hard to ignore, they are also local to my home town in the UK, the GBP to USD is pretty good and shipping is cheap and easy and of course I dont have any anxiety buying unseen from the UK as its originally my home and my brother lives 5 miles from their office if I need an enforcer

 

 

I had not given any thought to what to do with the existing Zetec and T9. I will reuse the aluminum belhousing from the current set up for sure though. Other than that I imagine I'd try to find a home for the motor and box. 

 

I'm really interested to learn about dampers and options on that front Nitron, Koni, Bilstein etc. I looked at the Nitron ones recently ($$$$'s) but, at least at first glance they fit +2004 and mine is 2000 and I've not really delved into this yet as I wanted to resolve the long lead time items first.

 

Bart.

 

 

[JohnCh]

I've dealt a lot with Raceline over the years.  Peter knows his stuff.  I'm sure it will be a fantastic engine.  Calling @Vovchandrin case your engine does go up for sale and his engine issues prove insurmountable.  

 

-John 

[Bartman]

It was Peter I spoke with originally, and then Chris, as you say they know their stuff. Such a small world we live in. If there are any members interested in the current motor that would be a great outcome. My plan is to make the transition over the winter given the lead times etc its likely 14-16 weeks before I have all the pieces and parts here.

 

 

 

[Croc]

@Bartman  Being a Pom , I am sure you have already considered this in your discussions with Raceline but for avoidance of doubt plus for the benefit of others thinking of following you, 93 octane in the UK is not the same as 93 octane in the USA as they use different measurement standards.  .  

[Bartman]

Hey Croc,

 

Thanks for the clarification, I was aware of the difference but had not even thought it through properly, Below is a bit of a description that i pulled from an ECU manufacturer's site.

 

I will make sure they are mapping it for UK 98 RON = USA 93 PON.

 

All that from a Pom  

 

American fuel vs European fuel – Fuel quality on both sides of the Atlantic explained

“Fuel in the US is really bad compared to Europe and the rest of the world” – is a very untrue statement. Fuel in the United States is as good as anywhere else in the world. What changes is how Americans describe their fuels in terms of quality – octane number. They use a different system so their numbers do not translate well into the octane numbers that the rest of the world uses.

How is fuel quality measured and rated

Gasoline quality is measured experimentally but using different tests. Depending on the test that is done to control fuel quality, we get

• Research Octane Number (RON) , used in Europe and most of the world
• Motor Octane Number (MON)

Because two different tests define RON and MON, with MON testing done under more difficult conditions, MON number is always lower than RON.

Europe vs the States

In Europe, gas stations describe different types of gasoline based on their RON rating. It is typical to have 100, 99, 98, 97 or 95 RON with prices varying accordingly. In the States the descriptions look a lot like RON, but they are not.

Pump gas

In the United States gas stations describe the types of gasoline based on the Pump Octane Number (PON). That number is the average between RON and MON. This causes many problems.

If a fuel is 98 RON then it will be 93 PON -> 93 PUMP
If a fuel is 95 RON and 87 MON then it will be 91 PON -> 91 PUMP