sf4018 Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 Just an update on pad selection for the rears - I’ve run 3 rear pads so far… Delphi 507CP AP Racing Mintex M1155 Was expecting the Mintex to be the winner (due to price) but so far AP Racing has the best wear rate of 166 miles/mm, Mintex only 55miles/mm. These are all heavy track use numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted July 4, 2022 Author Share Posted July 4, 2022 Thanks for the update. I have a set of Ferodo DS3000 on my shelf. My OEM (delphi) pads are just about done so I will test the DS3000s soon. I'm concerned they are too aggressive, but will find out. First I need to get the car running properly- I have a misfire issue I'm diagnosing... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 On 7/2/2022 at 5:39 PM, sf4018 said: Was expecting the Mintex to be the winner (due to price) but so far AP Racing has the best wear rate of 166 miles/mm, Mintex only 55miles/mm. These are all heavy track use numbers. What are you finding about the balance of the car with braking on track? I personally don't really care about the wear so long as the handling and braking performance is maximized. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sf4018 Posted July 4, 2022 Share Posted July 4, 2022 9 minutes ago, Croc said: What are you finding about the balance of the car with braking on track? I personally don't really care about the wear so long as the handling and braking performance is maximized. Ignoring the first lap (the fronts basically don't work when cold), the balance was best on the Mintex, very predictable over the full stint. The Delphi 507CP seemed to lose grip after half a dozen laps or so (guessing they overheated?) and the car started over-rotating. AP Racing somewhere between the 2. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 Thank you. interesting results. Yep - Delphi overheated. Classic sign is when they feel like the pad is cold and not gripping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted July 5, 2022 Author Share Posted July 5, 2022 Yeah that was my thought going with the DS3000- with the solid rear discs, they will run really hot late in long braking zones and should work well. Of course, this is at the expense of literally no rear braking when cold on the street (I drive the car to/from the track) and presumably extreme rotor wear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlB Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 On 2/13/2022 at 1:21 PM, sf4018 said: My understanding is the track systems will not have the hand brake so will not be road legal, but I haven't researched that yet to confirm. The AP rear brakes do not have parking brakes. Wilwood makes some, but you need to make brackets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarlB Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 This is very timely for me. Last year at NJMP going into one I was getting brake fade. I do not use engine braking. The car has the standard spitfire front brakes with solid rotors and ford rear brakes. I was using a Porterfield pad R4-1 that is a great autocross pad. They sell it as a vintage racing pad. It has lots of bite with a .56 average coefficient of friction and is done at 600 degrees. I am installing the Caterham AP upgraded brakes and they come with Ferodo DS street pads. These pads have a much lower coefficient of friction, and it sounds like they would not work well with the Ferodo pads. What I do not understand from the discussion is what front pad you all are using. Are you using the Ferodo DS street pad with the Mintex 1155 or are you using The Mintex 1155 all around? What are the part numbers for the front and rear Mintex pads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sf4018 Posted July 5, 2022 Share Posted July 5, 2022 20 minutes ago, CarlB said: This is very timely for me. Last year at NJMP going into one I was getting brake fade. I do not use engine braking. The car has the standard spitfire front brakes with solid rotors and ford rear brakes. I was using a Porterfield pad R4-1 that is a great autocross pad. They sell it as a vintage racing pad. It has lots of bite with a .56 average coefficient of friction and is done at 600 degrees. I am installing the Caterham AP upgraded brakes and they come with Ferodo DS street pads. These pads have a much lower coefficient of friction, and it sounds like they would not work well with the Ferodo pads. What I do not understand from the discussion is what front pad you all are using. Are you using the Ferodo DS street pad with the Mintex 1155 or are you using The Mintex 1155 all around? What are the part numbers for the front and rear Mintex pads? I'm using the Caterham supplied uprated front brake pads, still on the first set. I'm on set 6 for the rears. I'm just experimenting with rear pads to see if any don't wear out in 2 weekends but also work well on track. I don't think you need to match brands for front and rear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dallasdude Posted July 9, 2022 Share Posted July 9, 2022 I have used Carbotech pads for years. They normally have no problem supplying the rear (Ford Sierra) or the front Spitfire pads for Caterhams within a few days. The most they might ask for is cores for the rear. For track use, you have 3 reasonable choices, depending on the braking torque. XP 8, 10 and 12. We always used XP10s front and 8's rear. We do use a bias valve on the rear. Recently we changed one car to the Caterham uprated /Jack Webb/Canley front calipers with vented rotors. Huge pads compared to the Spitfire pads. We went to XP8's all around. Certainly easier to warm up on the pace lap. The other car we converted to the Ultralight setup. The pad is a little smaller (I think Elise front) but we went to XP8s on it also and still maintained good balance. This setup is really light, couple pounds less unsprung weight than stock and several pounds less than the uprated setup. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted July 11, 2022 Author Share Posted July 11, 2022 I used to run XP10s on my exige - once they're bedded, I really like them. However, I found them very finicky with regards to bedding- definitely a learning curve there. I just put in the DS3000 today, will report back after testing. Hopefully they don't put the bias too far to the rear and make it undriveable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dallasdude Posted July 25, 2022 Share Posted July 25, 2022 On 7/10/2022 at 9:24 PM, KnifeySpoony said: I used to run XP10s on my exige - once they're bedded, I really like them. However, I found them very finicky with regards to bedding- definitely a learning curve there. I just put in the DS3000 today, will report back after testing. Hopefully they don't put the bias too far to the rear and make it undriveable. Honestly, we never had a problem with bedding. Usually take it easy for a lap or two and then go on. Part of the bedding process is the transfer of pad material to make up an invisible material layer on the disks themselves. You should always replace (they're cheap) the rotors or rough up the surface with sandpaper when changing compounds.... the deposits on the rotors need to match the pads. Otherwise bedding can take much longer. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted July 25, 2022 Author Share Posted July 25, 2022 Yeah, the issue I had was I drove the car to the track, so the cold pads would abrade all the transfer layer off every time. So I would have to re-bed/transfer each trackday during the first session. And I found that you had to be very careful gradually getting the brakes hot and bedded. If I went too fast too quick, or activated ABS before fully bedded, then I would get an uneven transfer layer and HORRIBLE brake judder the rest of the day that could not be fixed until that uneven transfer layer was fully stripped off the rotor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted August 8, 2022 Author Share Posted August 8, 2022 Ok so did a day at Sonoma last Friday, tested out the DS3000. No issues bedding, I didn't prep the rotors at all and didn't notice anything other than gradual increase in braking power on my first session as I gradually got up to speed. Once bedded, I subjectively I felt that I had more stopping power before front lockup - this was confirmed in data review, with increased peak longitudinal acceleration seen in braking zones compared to the stock pads. Fronts still lockup first, which is good, but there is definitely more braking power now which I actually need to learn to fully utilize. I wasn't consistently getting to threshold and ended up underbraking early a lot - my brain and foot need to re-calibrate. So this means I will put off my plans to do the rear race brake upgrade; no point in doing that if my current setup is better than I am. The only reason would be to extend rear pad/rotor life. I'm sure these D3000 will chew through rotors. But at 35GBP each, it's not a big deal. Speaking of which - does anyone know of a source for rear rotors in the US to avoid shipping from Caterham? I think I'll post a separate thread asking... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SK400 Posted November 25, 2022 Share Posted November 25, 2022 KnifeySpoony Did you install a proportioning valve after all? If so, does it change the pedal feel and travel? I was told by someone to avoid the proportioning valves. I’m asking because I’m considering installing the rear AP racing brake kit from Caterham I had ordered 2 yrs ago and never installed. It comes with Pagid pads and of course the two piston calipers and concerned that I will increase the rear bias more than I’m looking for. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted November 25, 2022 Author Share Posted November 25, 2022 I'm still running the DS3000 in rear for increased bias, which I am happy with, although now that I'm having interference between my calipers and watts links after swapping DeDion ears for more camber, I'm considering the uprated rear brake upgrade again. My understanding is that the change sufficiently pushes bias rearward that you will need a proportioning valve unless you want the rears to lockup first. Perhaps you could adjust bias enough with different pads front and rear to get a good balance, but I don't know. I don't see any issue with running a valve however. many racecars have them, including the top-spec Caterham factory race cars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted September 15 Author Share Posted September 15 Update on the DS3000. They are garbage for me. My first set had a catastrophic failure (pad crumbled away/fell off backing plate) after 5 days. I figured it was a fluke so put on another set. After 3 days, one of the pads is starting to crumble away but hasn't fully let go yet. So I'm back to planning the race upgrade again. But I need another pad to get me through this season. May try the 1144 or AP racing. @sf4018 - which AP racing pad are you using? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sf4018 Posted September 15 Share Posted September 15 20 minutes ago, KnifeySpoony said: Update on the DS3000. They are garbage for me. My first set had a catastrophic failure (pad crumbled away/fell off backing plate) after 5 days. I figured it was a fluke so put on another set. After 3 days, one of the pads is starting to crumble away but hasn't fully let go yet. So I'm back to planning the race upgrade again. But I need another pad to get me through this season. May try the 1144 or AP racing. @sf4018 - which AP racing pad are you using? That’s terrible! https://caterhamparts.co.uk/calipers-pads-discs/7662-1-brake-pad-rear-standard-material-de-dion-cars.html CP3915-42-DS25HP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KnifeySpoony Posted September 29 Author Share Posted September 29 OK I'm officially done with the Sierra calipers. I went to put in a set of RS14s and saw that my LR caliper is weeping fluid. I have already replaced the RR caliper last year for leaking (this is on a 2021 build car with 4500miles on it). I'm going to do the race uprated rears and be done with it. Now I'm trying to decide if I'm going to put the bias valve under bonnet, or go through the faff of installing it in the cockpit. Also I need to learn how to cut/flare brake lines etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted September 30 Share Posted September 30 20 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said: OK I'm officially done with the Sierra calipers. I went to put in a set of RS14s and saw that my LR caliper is weeping fluid. I have already replaced the RR caliper last year for leaking (this is on a 2021 build car with 4500miles on it). I'm going to do the race uprated rears and be done with it. Now I'm trying to decide if I'm going to put the bias valve under bonnet, or go through the faff of installing it in the cockpit. Also I need to learn how to cut/flare brake lines etc. is the RS14 a standard Sierra calliper? Just fmi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now