Getting closer to a purchase. More questions.

[Saudio]

I'm still trying to sort out a viewing of a Caterham somewhere, but I'm pretty sure I'm going to end up ordering a 420R SV.  

 

Can anyone here speak to how loud this car is inside the cockpit, and would hearing protection normally be needed?  I'm curious if I should spec my car with the rear exhaust option.  I like a present engine sound but my friend has a Cobra and I can't stand to be in it without ear plugs.  

 

I expect my car to be mostly road use with occasional track days.  Is the electrical cut off switch really important?  How about the ventilated front brakes?  

 

How about the shift indicator?  I'm inclined to think that might be handy.  

 

13" or 15" wheels?  I've read the 13s are lighter and better for the track but the 15s might be a more compliant ride for road use.  I think the 15s look better in pics.  Thoughts?

 

Anything you really regret not having on you Caterham? Or anything that you think is useless?  

 

Thanks!  

 

 

 

 

[MV8]

I don't have a cat so feel free to ignore my input.

I think wind noise at speed would be louder than the standard side exhaust.

I don't think vented are necessary for a non-race cat and they should be lighter with lighter calipers for a better ride.

The cut off is driven by racing requirements.

Shift indicator, no. "Less is more".

13s for more sidewall cushion for a better ride and less weight.

[KnifeySpoony]

I don't think rear exhaust will change cabin noise much if it all. That's really just to help meet sound limits on track. On a pure street car, I'd go standard brakes. If you plan to track at all, I'd do the uprated brakes for sure. Shift lights are cool if you want something racy and plan on tracking enough to make it worth your while, but really not necessary. I have the lights and I do like them on track if you're chasing laptimes. Because of the nature of the car, you are really "connected" to the engine and can hear and feel all the vibration so you know what it's doing even with a rev counter or shift lights. In general, I'd say 13" wheels all the way, but I have an S3. On an SV, 15s kinda suit the proportions better, and open up more tire choices so there is some advantage to 15" wheels.  I have very few tire choices for my 13s. 

[CarlB]

I do not think there is that much difference in the sound between side and rear exit exhaust. 

The disconnect switch is for racing in general. On my car I eliminated the normal key and use the disconnect switch key.

The point of a shift light is so you do not have to take your eyes off the road (track) and look at the tachometer. I do not use it on the street.

I think the ride is better on the 13-inch wheels. They are lighter and if you are looking for ride quality you can get tires with taller sidewalls. There is more tire selection with 15-inch wheels. it is adjustable but the 15-inch wheels generally give you more ground clearance.

If you want to use the car on track get the big brakes. They are not needed on the street. The regular brake calipers are iron and the upgraded brake calipers are aluminum. there isn't much weight difference. IF I were to guess I would say the upgraded brakes are lighter.  

[Saudio]

5 hours ago, MV8 said:

I don't have a cat so feel free to ignore my input.

I think wind noise at speed would be louder than the standard side exhaust.

I don't think vented are necessary for a non-race cat and they should be lighter with lighter calipers for a better ride.

The cut off is driven by racing requirements.

Shift indicator, no. "Less is more".

13s for more sidewall cushion for a better ride and less weight.

Thanks for replying!  I didn't know the cut off was required for track days.  I guess I better add it for selling on.  

[Saudio]

3 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

I don't think rear exhaust will change cabin noise much if it all. That's really just to help meet sound limits on track. On a pure street car, I'd go standard brakes. If you plan to track at all, I'd do the uprated brakes for sure. Shift lights are cool if you want something racy and plan on tracking enough to make it worth your while, but really not necessary. I have the lights and I do like them on track if you're chasing laptimes. Because of the nature of the car, you are really "connected" to the engine and can hear and feel all the vibration so you know what it's doing even with a rev counter or shift lights. In general, I'd say 13" wheels all the way, but I have an S3. On an SV, 15s kinda suit the proportions better, and open up more tire choices so there is some advantage to 15" wheels.  I have very few tire choices for my 13s. 

Thanks!  That's interesting, I'm kind of surprised that the location of the exhaust, specifically the distance from the exhaust to my ear, wouldn't make a difference on cabin noise.  And I'm starting to waver on the shift lights.  Appreciate your input!  I definitely think the stance of the car is better with the 15s, even more so with the SV, so more thinking to do about that.  

[Saudio]

2 hours ago, CarlB said:

I do not think there is that much difference in the sound between side and rear exit exhaust. 

The disconnect switch is for racing in general. On my car I eliminated the normal key and use the disconnect switch key.

The point of a shift light is so you do not have to take your eyes off the road (track) and look at the tachometer. I do not use it on the street.

I think the ride is better on the 13-inch wheels. They are lighter and if you are looking for ride quality you can get tires with taller sidewalls. There is more tire selection with 15-inch wheels. it is adjustable but the 15-inch wheels generally give you more ground clearance.

If you want to use the car on track get the big brakes. They are not needed on the street. The regular brake calipers are iron and the upgraded brake calipers are aluminum. there isn't much weight difference. IF I were to guess I would say the upgraded brakes are lighter.  

Thanks Carl!  Very helpful!  I wonder if I could specify the elimination of the key switch in the build?  I like the idea of only having one kill.  More food for thought on the wheel selection.  thanks again.

[KnifeySpoony]

23 minutes ago, Saudio said:

Thanks!  That's interesting, I'm kind of surprised that the location of the exhaust, specifically the distance from the exhaust to my ear, wouldn't make a difference on cabin noise.  And I'm starting to waver on the shift lights.  Appreciate your input!  I definitely think the stance of the car is better with the 15s, even more so with the SV, so more thinking to do about that.  

As was stated elsewhere, most of the noise at speed is from wind. I run an aeroscreen so that is even more significant. I have ITBs (the caterham roller barrels) on my car, and I can't even hear the exhaust when on the throttle. The intake noise is much louder (and it's on my side of course). And that's with a decat midpipe.

 

Laguna Seca has strict sound limits most days (usually 90-92db) and has their sound booth on the right side of the track. I did a sound check (on a 105db day) with my right-exiting exhaust one day and blew a 95db. I had a custom exhaust pipe welded up to route the exit from the muffler under the car and out the back, angled to the left, away from the sound station- similar to the factory rear exit exhaust, but without the second smaller rear muffler. Did another sound check- blew a 96db. Keep in mind that a lot of exhaust sound emanates from all the piping and the muffler itself, not just out the tip.

Edited January 14, 2023 by KnifeySpoony

[CarlB]

I got rid of my ignition switch because I didn't want anything else to keep up with at the track. I really do not believe anyone could steal the car the way my switch panel is configured. Nothing is marked and the ignition and fuel pump are separate switches. I have extra ones and could make it so they would have to flip some more switches, but I am not going to get that far from the car. The kill switch is a safety thing for the track. You do not need it to do track days. It is an extra layer of protection. The switch I have did not come from Caterham. It is very popular with racers, and it might be the same as Caterham, but you will need to check to make sure the knob or key comes out. Not all the disconnect switches have a key. 

[wemtd]

 

Wheels. If I correctly recall a prior tire/wheel discussion: our resident boffin recommended 13" wheels to allow for more sidewall. Reporting a better ride/cushioning/unsprung weight without loss of performance in our lightweight cars. 

Noise. Another Caterham driver observed slight notes of exhaust with rear exhaust not present with side exhaust. I've never had rear exhaust so I take their word for it. 

 

Regardless of configuration, or aero/Brookland's/windscreen most here would agree that hearing & eye protection are standard kit when driving these cars regardless of road/track/driveway/parking lot.  In my Birkin i primarily hear noise from thet ITB's(driver side) and wind, less so exhaust noise (off-side). Exhaust is more notable at low speeds, especially along wooded backroads where noise can be reflected off trees, etc. People with them report doors significantly decrease wind buffeting.

 

Brakes & etc. When I spec'd & built my car I never anticipated anything other than blatting around twisty back roads. I now find my self sliding deeper into autocross & trackdays. Without going off the deep end with carbon fiber bits & bobs; I don't think you'll ever regret addition of up-rated suspension, roll-bar, & etc. You never know where this addiction will take you in 10 or 15 years. (or re-sale value if SWMBO sees the invoice).

 

Seats: I 'think' the standard caterham seats are pretty comfortable, I always thought the Birkin Sport/fiberglass seats were. I upgraded to a Tillet B6 for a more snug fit and better lateral restraint on track. Despite the minimal padding This is a very comfortable seat even for long drives and one of the best upgrades I've made. 

 

- Be patient & enjoy the process.  I think many of us find building/assembly to be almost as much fun as driving. I certainly did. 

Cheers

P.

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by wemtd
Tillett addition

[Alex-Ks1]

I dont know about anyone else. But when I built mine with a V-6 , I had to make the headers for both sides, and it is loud, AND Flames shoot out of the pipes,  Its loud very loud, but that what I wanted, The full race cam makes it very grouchy  LOLOL . But that's why there is vanilla and chocolate ice-cream, something for everyone. On wheels I have 15 inch in the front and 16 inch on the rear . . The GPS speed-O doesn't care what size tires are on the car. 

MPH is always correct . 

      remember , its an open roadster, it will be just as loud inside or standing next to it, besides the car is saying ,, " look at me, Im here"

[Croc]

23 hours ago, Saudio said:

Can anyone here speak to how loud this car is inside the cockpit, and would hearing protection normally be needed?  I'm curious if I should spec my car with the rear exhaust option.  I like a present engine sound but my friend has a Cobra and I can't stand to be in it without ear plugs.  

 

Hearing protection is always recommended - road or track.  You have 3 sources of noise - intake, exhaust and wind.  You are thinking of an 420 SV so that would not require the cut out for roller barrels or sausage filter if you included that now or in the future.  The standard intake is a plenum with a mesh hole.  Helps to muffle the intake a little.  Exhaust noise can be moderated.  Side or rear exhaust options exist with single muffler.  The cat converter does help quieten exhaust noise.  But you also have the track day muffler options which is two mufflers.  Gets you down to 90db.  I have it on my 420R.  There is the usual side exhaust silencer but then a second silencer is added at the back as shown in the photo below.

 

 

This two silencer configuration is available for order in the USA but not well known.  

 

Worst noise is clearly wind.  Not much you can do about that other than ear plugs or some form of ear protection.   Road or track, I recommend you use it.   

 

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Saudio said:

I expect my car to be mostly road use with occasional track days.  Is the electrical cut off switch really important?  How about the ventilated front brakes?  

 

Excellent - someone who wants to use the car as it was designed to be - on the track!

 

A cut off switch is nice if you crash but lets think positive.  Most of my cut off switches end up protecting the battery from parasitic drain.  All of my Caterhams have had some form of parasitic electrical drain that eventually flattens the battery.  I suspect it is the ECU.  The cut off switch is useful for stopping that.  Its also an extra form of theft deterrent. 

 

Don't try to eliminate the ignition key without taking out the full immobilizer system.  

 

Ventilated front brakes are nice but not essential.  Lots of people run on track with the standard brakes.  Most people never learn how late and how little you need to brake a Caterham.  If you think you might add some power a few years from now then specify the upgrade now - it will be much cheaper than adding them later. 

 

 

23 hours ago, Saudio said:

How about the shift indicator?  I'm inclined to think that might be handy.  

 

Yes - if you are on a track and firing out of a corner in second going to 7000rpm, you are NOT looking at a gauge but you will see red flashing lights in your peripheral vision from the shift lights.

 

 

 

23 hours ago, Saudio said:

13" or 15" wheels?  I've read the 13s are lighter and better for the track but the 15s might be a more compliant ride for road use.  I think the 15s look better in pics.

 

 

Always 13 inch wheels.  Lower unsprung weight.  Less rotational mass.  Better ride.  Better telegraphing of breakaway.  You have to drive 15s and 13s back to back to believe the difference in feel but it is substantial.  

 

 

23 hours ago, Saudio said:

Anything you really regret not having on you Caterham? Or anything that you think is useless?  

 

 

I think 420R is standard dry sump but if not, then specify it since you want to track your car.  Also gives you more ground clearance under the sump.

 

Always wire your indicators up to a beeper.  You will forget to turn them off....its a rite of passage thing.

 

High level brake light for visibility is essential.  

 

If you are going to track your car then install the captive nut brackets for the windscreen to make the changeover from windscreen to aeroscreen a quick easy exercise for one person.   Definitely you want a windscreen for road protection but an aeroscreen for track.  

 

If you are going to track then specify the racing shell/Tillet style seats with the 6 point Schroth harnesses.  Hold you in place so you can concentrate on driving.  

 

Useless?   Always the driver....

 

 

 

[jimmylukeii]

Agreed with lota of folks on 13" wheels, battery cutoff (battery drain), aeroscreen (I run it on the street with full face helmet because it is so much fun), and high level brake light (10 minutes to install).

 

I will add something new - lightweight flywheel.  The car spins up so much faster, and the engine braking is much stronger.  Great for track and also fun on the street.

 

Honestly, the bottom line is that you can't go wrong, in my humble opinion.  

 

[CarlB]

Light flywheel is a big deal. You want to get that.

[nortoncommando]

Been following this line. I'm a newby.

No advice, though, unless you're into old British bikes too. 

I'm about at the same point (acquisition-wise) and have my eye on a couple of Caterhams for sale.

Similar questions, too.

But I'm writing because I just realized that we're "neighbors". I'm just over the hill in Earlysville, new to the area.

It'd be nice to find someone who has a similar perverse sense of humor as I do. And if you're becoming fluent in lotus/caterham you do.

Get together?

 

 

[Saudio]

On 1/14/2023 at 5:52 PM, wemtd said:

 

Wheels. If I correctly recall a prior tire/wheel discussion: our resident boffin recommended 13" wheels to allow for more sidewall. Reporting a better ride/cushioning/unsprung weight without loss of performance in our lightweight cars. 

Noise. Another Caterham driver observed slight notes of exhaust with rear exhaust not present with side exhaust. I've never had rear exhaust so I take their word for it. 

 

Regardless of configuration, or aero/Brookland's/windscreen most here would agree that hearing & eye protection are standard kit when driving these cars regardless of road/track/driveway/parking lot.  In my Birkin i primarily hear noise from thet ITB's(driver side) and wind, less so exhaust noise (off-side). Exhaust is more notable at low speeds, especially along wooded backroads where noise can be reflected off trees, etc. People with them report doors significantly decrease wind buffeting.

 

Brakes & etc. When I spec'd & built my car I never anticipated anything other than blatting around twisty back roads. I now find my self sliding deeper into autocross & trackdays. Without going off the deep end with carbon fiber bits & bobs; I don't think you'll ever regret addition of up-rated suspension, roll-bar, & etc. You never know where this addiction will take you in 10 or 15 years. (or re-sale value if SWMBO sees the invoice).

 

Seats: I 'think' the standard caterham seats are pretty comfortable, I always thought the Birkin Sport/fiberglass seats were. I upgraded to a Tillet B6 for a more snug fit and better lateral restraint on track. Despite the minimal padding This is a very comfortable seat even for long drives and one of the best upgrades I've made. 

 

- Be patient & enjoy the process.  I think many of us find building/assembly to be almost as much fun as driving. I certainly did. 

Cheers

P.

 

Good input, thank you.  By notes of exhaust do you mean smelling the exhaust from the cabin?  I'm struggling against just saying F it and ordering EVERYTHING.  I guess it will only hurt once.  But seriously, trying to sort out what to choose to afford is quite a process.  Definitely getting the R package though.  And I'm not a builder, I'll be ordering the car assembled.  No space or patience for a self build. 

[Saudio]

7 hours ago, Croc said:

 

Hearing protection is always recommended - road or track.  You have 3 sources of noise - intake, exhaust and wind.  You are thinking of an 420 SV so that would not require the cut out for roller barrels or sausage filter if you included that now or in the future.  The standard intake is a plenum with a mesh hole.  Helps to muffle the intake a little.  Exhaust noise can be moderated.  Side or rear exhaust options exist with single muffler.  The cat converter does help quieten exhaust noise.  But you also have the track day muffler options which is two mufflers.  Gets you down to 90db.  I have it on my 420R.  There is the usual side exhaust silencer but then a second silencer is added at the back as shown in the photo below.

 

 

This two silencer configuration is available for order in the USA but not well known.  

 

Worst noise is clearly wind.  Not much you can do about that other than ear plugs or some form of ear protection.   Road or track, I recommend you use it.   

 

 

 

 

 

Excellent - someone who wants to use the car as it was designed to be - on the track!

 

A cut off switch is nice if you crash but lets think positive.  Most of my cut off switches end up protecting the battery from parasitic drain.  All of my Caterhams have had some form of parasitic electrical drain that eventually flattens the battery.  I suspect it is the ECU.  The cut off switch is useful for stopping that.  Its also an extra form of theft deterrent. 

 

Don't try to eliminate the ignition key without taking out the full immobilizer system.  

 

Ventilated front brakes are nice but not essential.  Lots of people run on track with the standard brakes.  Most people never learn how late and how little you need to brake a Caterham.  If you think you might add some power a few years from now then specify the upgrade now - it will be much cheaper than adding them later. 

 

 

 

Yes - if you are on a track and firing out of a corner in second going to 7000rpm, you are NOT looking at a gauge but you will see red flashing lights in your peripheral vision from the shift lights.

 

 

 

 

Always 13 inch wheels.  Lower unsprung weight.  Less rotational mass.  Better ride.  Better telegraphing of breakaway.  You have to drive 15s and 13s back to back to believe the difference in feel but it is substantial.  

 

 

 

I think 420R is standard dry sump but if not, then specify it since you want to track your car.  Also gives you more ground clearance under the sump.

 

Always wire your indicators up to a beeper.  You will forget to turn them off....its a rite of passage thing.

 

High level brake light for visibility is essential.  

 

If you are going to track your car then install the captive nut brackets for the windscreen to make the changeover from windscreen to aeroscreen a quick easy exercise for one person.   Definitely you want a windscreen for road protection but an aeroscreen for track.  

 

If you are going to track then specify the racing shell/Tillet style seats with the 6 point Schroth harnesses.  Hold you in place so you can concentrate on driving.  

 

Useless?   Always the driver....

 

 

 

Very interesting and helpful post, thank you very much.  The track day muffler is an interesting option.  I'm a retired audio engineer so noise is a pretty big factor for me.  I love a mean growling engine noise, but just not so loud that it is uncomfortable to drive any distance without ear plugs.  Because, a loud engine with ear plugs sounds much worse than one less loud and no plugs.  It kinds of ruins the whole sound experience if you have to muffle it with ear plugs every time you start the car.  

 

Curious about your "add some power" remark.  I've poked around the net a little but don't see much in the way of power mods for the 420.  I've considered a 620 but not interested in RHD.  It would be nice to know there is a path to more power in the 420.  

 

High level brake light?  Does that mean a brighter light or one mounted higher up on the car?

 

Still scratching my head on the aero screen option. I never considered having a car without a windscreen but many people here think it enhances the experience (while making a helmet mandatory).  I guess a helmet would also partially solve the noise problem...  Everything affects everything.

 

Thanks for the pics too!  

 

Cheers. 

 

 

 

 

[Saudio]

3 hours ago, jimmylukeii said:

Agreed with lota of folks on 13" wheels, battery cutoff (battery drain), aeroscreen (I run it on the street with full face helmet because it is so much fun), and high level brake light (10 minutes to install).

 

I will add something new - lightweight flywheel.  The car spins up so much faster, and the engine braking is much stronger.  Great for track and also fun on the street.

 

Honestly, the bottom line is that you can't go wrong, in my humble opinion.  

 

Starting to look like most people prefer the 13" wheels.  Helpful.  I usually keep my cars on a battery tender but the cutoff switch is looking more likely.  And the lightweight flywheel is part of the R package so I'll be getting that.  Thanks much!

[Alex-Ks1]

if you want more power, build it yourself and put a LS3 GM crate engine in it, they can go up to about 700HP. is that enough? Mine is just over 265 HP and is scary fast .

[Saudio]

2 hours ago, nortoncommando said:

Been following this line. I'm a newby.

No advice, though, unless you're into old British bikes too. 

I'm about at the same point (acquisition-wise) and have my eye on a couple of Caterhams for sale.

Similar questions, too.

But I'm writing because I just realized that we're "neighbors". I'm just over the hill in Earlysville, new to the area.

It'd be nice to find someone who has a similar perverse sense of humor as I do. And if you're becoming fluent in lotus/caterham you do.

Get together?

 

 

Howdy!  Yes, you are right over the hill.  I have two cars that have to be serviced in Charlottesville, perhaps I could swing by en route some time.  If we both end up with Cats it would be mandatory for us to connect.  :-)