ABC Fire extinguisher "corrosive problem" with aluminum

[Vovchandr]

There was a an aircraft mechanic that recently made a big stink on FB about regular fire extinguishers and using them on Aluminum

 

This made me wonder and look into the matter but there is a lot involved

 

There are ABC/AB/Element/Halon/ etc

 

He says only Halon is allowed in aircraft use and everything else is corrosive on Aluminum and you might as well let the car burn as if you use corrosive items they will destroy the car anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Getting into the minutia it gets more complicated as there are many times of elements that are used in extinguishers and ABC only describes their use not their contacts or reactiveness

 

So the summary appears to be there are these types

 

Ammonium phosphate - wet foam

sodium bicarbonate - dry chemical

element - don't know

Halon - safe for aviation due to Aluminum oxidation

 

Big debate is whether the guy is over reacting or not

 

I've reached out to to Element to hear it from the horses mouth whether they are corrosive

 

I currently use first Alert BC one but will likely have Element on order next. Maybe dry chemical baking soda one instead?

 

 

[Vovchandr]

Voice of reason?

 

[MV8]

Well..., he seems very passionate to a fault. What a nice young man.

Halon is a numbering system to describe the make up of halongenated agents. It is not one specific extinguishing agent but 1301 is well known and common. There have been corrosive halon numbered agents.

The regulations do not prevent the use of many different agents except in the cabin where Halon 1301 is not allowed on large aircraft. Halon 1211 is specified based on seating capacity in transport category aircraft, but that's about it.

Traditionally, it has been CO2 which is effective on most everything but metal actually burning versus being on fire from something on it. Don't see many flammable metals on cats except for you high roller racers who should have a halon system anyway if our priorities are in order. Just my thoughts.

Halon 1301 is the successor to CO2 but CO2 still works and is not corrosive as are some other agents.

Dry powder creates CO2 when heated and the residue helps keep the fire out. It is corrosive but it is not so aggressive that it can't be cleaned off with a chlorine solution after a few days unless applied to a surface over 1000f or so; then it needs to be removed that day.

Happy to help anybody unload their cat covered in dry powder. Let me take care of that eyesore.

Clear as mud?

Edited May 21, 2023 by MV8

[anduril3019]

As stated above, it kind of comes down to priorities, especially with safety equipment. A roll bar's first purpose is to prevent/reduce injury in a roll over situation, If it can also be designed to increase chassis stiffness, great! A harness is also meant to first prevent/reduce injury in an accident, if it can also improve your driving by keeping you from flopping around, great! Likewise, a fire extinguisher/system has a primary purpose of extinguishing fire, preventing loss of life, preventing further property damage, preventing spreading of the fire, etc. If it can do all those things and be non-corrosive, great! So, just letting it burn kind of misses the bigger point I'd say, but he gets extra points for drama!

[7Westfield]

Halon is no longer available

Dupont FE-36 and 3M Novec are the replacements

there are also some AFFF -foam- systems, but they aren't SFI rated, so racers don't use them

[jbcollier]

I have “halon” handheld extinguishers in my Lotuses and as well as halon suppression system in the Europa.  You can buy them from aviation suppliers.  The newer gases are not ozone depleting like halon and would be a better choice now. 

[jbcollier]

I have also cleaned up and repaired cars that have had fires extinguished using more common extinguishers.  It “ain’t” fun but not a complete disaster.

[wdb]

Subbing. I need to update the 30 year old fire extinguisher in my cat and was considering a suppression system 'while I'm in there'.

[jbcollier]

Fibreglass is a problem because, once ignited, it had all the ingredients to keep burning.  This makes it very difficult to extinguish a fire once it gets going.  So Lotuses like the Elan, Europa, S4 Seven are quite likely to suffer significant damage.  A suppression system is a great idea for these cars.

 

Sevens, and most Seven clones, are mostly steel and aluminium, not really a great fire risk.  By all means, carry a fire extinguisher!  But a full suppression system is over the top unless your racing.

 

If your extinguisher is 30 years old and has never been tested, you have issues!  Serious issues!  If you are not regularly testing your extinguisher, does this mean you’re also not regularly changing fuel lines?!?!  The best way to prevent fires is regular maintenance.  Fix it when it breaks is a poor policy with perishable fuel lines!

[Vovchandr]

1 hour ago, jbcollier said:

changing fuel lines?!?!

 

Say what now? 

Edited May 22, 2023 by Vovchandr

[Vovchandr]

So what I'm gathering so far is that the Element one is likely a reasonable alternative right now

[MV8]

Decide for yourself.

[JohnCh]

It's hard to take that result seriously since he didn't follow Element's instructions, and in fact did it exactly like they say to avoid.  I can't link directly to that portion of their FAQ, so I'll post the relevant section below in its entirety:

 

"Unlike a dry chemical extinguisher that combats a blaze by depositing a large amount of solid powder on the fire, an Element extinguisher fights a fire by releasing a gas. This gas attaches itself to the oxygen surrounding the fire robbing its ability to stick to the chain of combustion (without affecting ones ability to breath that oxygen). The goal is therefore to use the gas coming out the Element extinguisher to create a ‘cloud of containment’ around a fire. Creating a cloud that prevents any outside and un-attached oxygen from getting to the fire is essential and is the same strategy that should also be used with a Halon/Halotron or CO2 extinguisher.

The two worst things you can do when fighting a fire with a gas extinguisher is to be too close or to rush the process. Being very close to a fire means that a cloud cannot be formed blocking any new oxygen that will continue to feed the flame. This is particularly problematic in an isolated pan situation where being too close will only chase the flames around. Rushing the process by moving the extinguisher around a lot also prevents a cloud from being formed and diminishes the performance of the extinguisher.

The best technique is to take advantage of the long discharge time offered by the Element extinguisher and to approach a fire from a moderate distance progressively getting closer to its source. During the approach, move the extinguisher slowly around the fire always directing towards the center. This will contain the fire and allow the gas the ability to work.

Tight areas with lots of pockets (like the engine bay of a car) brings out the strengths of the Element extinguisher as the gas, which is heavier than air, will fill all the voids not directly accessible; both putting out a fire and preventing a re-flash. "

[sf4018]

Caterham's factory installed fire system is based on this system...

Lifeline Zero 2000 2.25 ltr Club Fire Marshal Mechanical System (lifeline-fire.com)

...it says it's a foam system, but I couldn't find any more detail on what kind of foam, maybe that's proprietary, dunno.

[MV8]

Proprietary, but I'd expect some instruction on the clean up process after discharge and an MSDS in case of eye or skin contact. This would help determine what it is.

Edited May 23, 2023 by MV8

[MV8]

On 5/22/2023 at 1:50 PM, JohnCh said:

It's hard to take that result seriously since he didn't follow Element's instructions, and in fact did it exactly like they say to avoid.  I can't link directly to that portion of their FAQ, so I'll post the relevant section below in its entirety:

 

"Unlike a dry chemical extinguisher that combats a blaze by depositing a large amount of solid powder on the fire, an Element extinguisher fights a fire by releasing a gas. This gas attaches itself to the oxygen surrounding the fire robbing its ability to stick to the chain of combustion (without affecting ones ability to breath that oxygen). The goal is therefore to use the gas coming out the Element extinguisher to create a ‘cloud of containment’ around a fire. Creating a cloud that prevents any outside and un-attached oxygen from getting to the fire is essential and is the same strategy that should also be used with a Halon/Halotron or CO2 extinguisher.

The two worst things you can do when fighting a fire with a gas extinguisher is to be too close or to rush the process. Being very close to a fire means that a cloud cannot be formed blocking any new oxygen that will continue to feed the flame. This is particularly problematic in an isolated pan situation where being too close will only chase the flames around. Rushing the process by moving the extinguisher around a lot also prevents a cloud from being formed and diminishes the performance of the extinguisher.

The best technique is to take advantage of the long discharge time offered by the Element extinguisher and to approach a fire from a moderate distance progressively getting closer to its source. During the approach, move the extinguisher slowly around the fire always directing towards the center. This will contain the fire and allow the gas the ability to work.

Tight areas with lots of pockets (like the engine bay of a car) brings out the strengths of the Element extinguisher as the gas, which is heavier than air, will fill all the voids not directly accessible; both putting out a fire and preventing a re-flash. "

I don't know. A person with no fire training that suddenly has a fire to put out probably won't read all that while their pride and joy is melting. Could also be human factors of having an extinguisher that I don't have to worry about/read the label of for the next ten years.

[JohnCh]

I read the instructions when I bought mine a couple of years ago.  Seemed a small price to pay for the form factor   If his review stated "here's what happens if you use the Element like you would intuitively use a traditional fire extinguisher" then his review would be useful.  But as it stands, it's just a PSA for reading directions.

[wdb]

4 hours ago, JohnCh said:

I read the instructions when I bought mine a couple of years ago.  Seemed a small price to pay for the form factor   If his review stated "here's what happens if you use the Element like you would intuitively use a traditional fire extinguisher" then his review would be useful.  But as it stands, it's just a PSA for reading directions.

Suppose you’re not the one using it though. I think a thing like a fire extinguisher should be intuitively simple to figure out. 

[JohnCh]

My guess is that someone who doesn't know how to use a fire extinguisher is going to walk up on the fire slowly rather than jump right on top of it like the person in the video.  That behavior is exactly what Element recommends.  If you are worried about your scenario, I would ignore the Element simply because it operates like a road flare rather than pulling a pin and squeezing a trigger.  How many people know how to use a flare?  

[BirkinBernie]

In September of 2005 I had to deal with a fire emergency in my Birkin which was parked in the garage at the time.  The car was nosed into the garage and the garage door was open.  I was leaving for Houston the next day to join the Brits on the USA 2005 Tour.  A NiCad pack I had purchased to power an in-car camera had a melt-down and set fire to the contents of the boot and the fiberglass boot itself.  I was in the house when a neighbor banged on the front door yelling "FIRE!".  After dialing 911 and handing the phone to my wife I ran into the garage and grabbed the extinguisher off the wall.  I stood 15 feet back from the Birkin where the fire was burning inches above the full fuel tank.  I had to decide between fighting the fire or running like hell.  Then I realized that doing nothing meant standing back and watching our home burn down.  I emptied the dry powder extinguisher into the fire and knocked down most of it - but the fiberglass boot "tub" was still burning - so I grabbed the hose and was able to put the fire out. 

 

The point of all this is that when the sh*t hits the fan, the type of extinguisher you use will be the last thing you consider.  You will either use whatever tools are available to you or you will let the professionals deal with it.  There ain't a lot of time to worry about the cleanup when the flames are rising. 

 

Oh and our neighbors and local friends in the Se7ens community came together to rescue us.  Neighbors helped clean up the Birkin and the other two cars that were in the garage.  Dick Brink and other Se7ens buddies provided spare parts and in two days I left for Austin where I met the Brits at the end of their first day of the Tour. 

 

And, lastly, the dry powder used to put the fire out was hosed down and cleaned up best we could.  And the Birkin, now 23 years old, hasn't corroded into nothingness, Mr Chovan's panicked warning notwithstanding.  Attached are a couple of pics before the cleanup, and one the night before I left on the trip two days later.....