Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 1 hour ago, Vovchandr said: It appears to be a later 2000's build with new headilght mounts and later wheels but with LHD and left side exhaust. Late Zetec like a 2008? It's a 2005 with a 2003 Zetec SVT engine. I converted the headlights to the new style. I might be wrong but Zetec SVT were only produced in 2003-2004.
Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 3 hours ago, mrmustang said: Since you have not told us what year your Caterham is, whether it is LHD or RHD, and if it was converted from another drivetrain (like my 03 was 1 year after production) Engine recently rebuilt you say, I'm going with a bent, loose, or damaged pin in an electrical connection within your engine compartment while the engine was being reinstalled. Original drivetrain since new back in 2005. It's a LHD and the car was doing that thing before the engine has been taken out for a rebuilt. It's only more frequent now :/
Vovchandr Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) 4 hours ago, Ted7 said: I push the clutch while it still rolling and it restarts. No starter involved. I don't go to a complete stop since I'm in gear. As soon as I press the clutch the engine restart on it's own, no turning the key, no starter noise, it just restarts. Believe me, in years and years of driving many type of different cars, I've never experienced this. Ok. So I'm trying to understand this entirely. You're driving, in gear, accelerating (or braking) and the engine "dies" which I assume is that it just stops responding to throttle and you start engine braking/decelerating? You're still in gear, coasting with RPM's up and engine rotating and all the electrical still on. You push the clutch in and the engine goes to idle RPM and or resumes throttle response. Very important, are all the electronics still working and just the throttle no longer works or is this like a full electrical cut off with nothing working until you press the clutch back in for things to "come alive"? This is either load related or electrical gremlin related. Does your car have a clutch safety switch? If so defeat it for troubleshooting (tape it down or jump the wires) If your car doesn't have it (you don't need to press the clutch to start it) good proceed to next steps Next time this happens I want you to not press the clutch but do the following 1) While still moving push gear shift level into neutral without touching the clutch pedal. The engine go to 0rpm and is dead? Good, put hazards on and pull over and come to a complete stop. Proceed to step 2 2) Restart the engine with key in neutral still without pressing the clutch pedal (we defeated the safety or you dont have it to begin with) and see what the engine does. If it doesn't restart and just cranks then its definitely clutch pedal related. If it restarts without you touching the clutch it was never clutch pedal related. This will help partition the issue further. If by pushing the gear shift into neutral the engine kept running at idle and maintained it, then the issue isn't clutch related at all but rather engine load related or physical shifting of wiring/mechanics that causes an intermittent fault. Plenty of electrical things can interrupt and engine from running and shut it off, not many will let it come back to life without mechanical jiggling of wires or sensors. Edited July 28 by Vovchandr 1
Vovchandr Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) Can you give us pictures of your engine bay and transmission from above? Edited July 28 by Vovchandr
wdb Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) Okay, so iI think the clutch depress = engine "restart" issue may be cleared up. Tell me if this sequence is correct: car is being driven in gear engine loses all power, but car is still moving and in gear clutch pedal is depressed engine "restarts" Is that the sequence? Edited July 28 by wdb
IamScotticus Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) Dieseling? Good chance you still have enough drag in the clutch to drive the crank but its low enough for some timing slack to relax. How's your timing tension? Edited July 28 by IamScotticus
mrmustang Posted July 28 Posted July 28 6 hours ago, Ted7 said: I push the clutch while it still rolling and it restarts. No starter involved. I don't go to a complete stop since I'm in gear. As soon as I press the clutch the engine restart on it's own, no turning the key, no starter noise, it just restarts. Believe me, in years and years of driving many type of different cars, I've never experienced this. But the car is still in gear? That suggests an electrical short as has already been mentioned previously, not only that, but it also suggests your clutch never fully disengages, perhaps you have some type of minor grind or difficulty getting the car in gear at times. What happens if the car is not in gear and you push the clutch while you are moving, will the car start with the car in neutral without the starter engaging? Just trying to get past the obvious that others have yet to touch base on. If the car is in a gear, and you depress the clutch, and the engine starts, you are never disconnecting from the clutch 100%, but dragging it lightly along. Without the mass to turn the engine over, or the starter engaging, there is no immaculate compression for which the engine needs to restart. So, for now: Clutch drag Wiring short or short to ground in and around the clutch pedal assembly and/or master/slave cylinder. No rhyme or reason equals my leaning towards the shorted wiring theory, ignition cylinder or ECU related with the actual shorted/pinched wiring somewhere in the harness or even a loose connection within any number of assorted plugs. Without pulling and testing, one item at a time, you may never know. Bill
Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 7 hours ago, Vovchandr said: You're driving, in gear, accelerating (or braking) and the engine "dies" which I assume is that it just stops responding to throttle and you start engine braking/decelerating? You're still in gear, coasting with RPM's up and engine rotating and all the electrical still on. You push the clutch in and the engine goes to idle RPM and or resumes throttle response. Accelerating or cruising, never when I brake. When I push the clutch the engine restarts idling. Quote Very important, are all the electronics still working and just the throttle no longer works or is this like a full electrical cut off with nothing working until you press the clutch back in for things to "come alive"? All electronics, well there's not much electronics, but when it happen at night, lights and dashboard are still on. No electrical interruption. Quote Does your car have a clutch safety switch? If so defeat it for troubleshooting (tape it down or jump the wires) Nope, no safety switch Quote 1) While still moving push gear shift level into neutral without touching the clutch pedal. The engine go to 0rpm and is dead? Good, put hazards on and pull over and come to a complete stop. Proceed to step 2 2) Restart the engine with key in neutral still without pressing the clutch pedal (we defeated the safety or you dont have it to begin with) and see what the engine does. If it doesn't restart and just cranks then its definitely clutch pedal related. If it restarts without you touching the clutch it was never clutch pedal related. I can try that when it's possible to pull over. I'll try to drive in a calm area Quote Plenty of electrical things can interrupt and engine from running and shut it off, not many will let it come back to life without mechanical jiggling of wires or sensors. That's exactly why I posted here Another solution is to put it on a dyno and try to reproduce the fault while plugged to a diagnostic system. 1
Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 4 hours ago, wdb said: Okay, so iI think the clutch depress = engine "restart" issue may be cleared up. Tell me if this sequence is correct: car is being driven in gear engine loses all power, but car is still moving and in gear clutch pedal is depressed engine "restarts" Is that the sequence? That is correct. What's weird is that the car restarts without cranking or releasing the clutch. It can happen 5 times on a 10 mile drive or not at all on a 20 mile drive. Totally random, no matter how fast it goes.
Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 1 hour ago, mrmustang said: But the car is still in gear? That suggests an electrical short as has already been mentioned previously, not only that, but it also suggests your clutch never fully disengages, perhaps you have some type of minor grind or difficulty getting the car in gear at times. What happens if the car is not in gear and you push the clutch while you are moving, will the car start with the car in neutral without the starter engaging? Clutch fully disengage. The transmission has been rebuilt too when the engine was out, and I had the issue before the full rebuilt. The car moves without effort freely when in neutral. Quote So, for now: ... Without pulling and testing, one item at a time, you may never know. Been on this for over a month now
Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 7 hours ago, Vovchandr said: Can you give us pictures of your engine bay and transmission from above? Will do when I get to the car 1
KnifeySpoony Posted July 28 Posted July 28 I wouldn't think of the engine as "dying"- ie shutting off, then restarting. What the OP is describing is simply loss of power. When he declutches, the engine just idles normally. Nothing is "restarting". Am I wrong?
Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 5 minutes ago, KnifeySpoony said: I wouldn't think of the engine as "dying"- ie shutting off, then restarting. What the OP is describing is simply loss of power. When he declutches, the engine just idles normally. Nothing is "restarting". Am I wrong? You are. The engine is shutting off, as if I was turning off the engine with the key. It is completely dead and restarts at idling speed when I depress the clutch.
panamericano Posted July 28 Posted July 28 Have you tried switching the key off then on, before using the clutch?
Ted7 Posted July 28 Author Posted July 28 2 minutes ago, panamericano said: Have you tried switching the key off then on, before using the clutch? I haven't but could try. What would it means?
KnifeySpoony Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Ted7 said: You are. The engine is shutting off, as if I was turning off the engine with the key. It is completely dead and restarts at idling speed when I depress the clutch. The above statement contradicts your earlier statement.... What does "completely dead" mean to you? 0rpm? What does "restarts at idling speed" mean? We have been asking you this for 3 pages of posts and still this is unclear. Edited July 28 by KnifeySpoony
wdb Posted July 28 Posted July 28 (edited) I don’t think the engine is shutting off. I think the fuel or throttle is being cut all the way back to idle level. This could be tested by NOT pushing in the clutch and just slowing the car down to idle RPMs (assuming it is safe to do so). See if the engine is still moving the car, or if the car stops dead. Another test would be to leave the clutch engaged and try very slight feathering of the throttle. If that results in continued motion it might help narrow down the culprit. Edited July 28 by wdb
Ted7 Posted July 29 Author Posted July 29 8 minutes ago, wdb said: I don’t think the engine is shutting off. I think the fuel or throttle is being cut all the way back to idle level. This could be tested by NOT pushing in the clutch and just slowing the car down to idle RPMs (assuming it is safe to do so). See if the engine is still moving the car, or if the car stops dead. It's off, RPM needle is falling down to zero while lights are still on. I would hear it idling. Quote Another test would be to leave the clutch engaged and try very slight feathering of the throttle. If that results in continued motion it might help narrow down the culprit. Tried this, it doesn't work. Only depressing the clutch works. 1
Ted7 Posted July 29 Author Posted July 29 28 minutes ago, KnifeySpoony said: The above statement contradicts your earlier statement.... What does "completely dead" mean to you? 0rpm? What does "restarts at idling speed" mean? We have been asking you this for 3 pages of posts and still this is unclear. It doesn't contradict anything. I tried several times to explain this situation, maybe I should do a video. 1. Car runs fine, very well in fact, pulling hard, no misfire, nothing. 2. Suddenly engine stops (or die, or shuts off, I'm not sure how many different way I should be explaining this, needle is at 0 RPM) 3. Depressing the clutch restarts the engine which runs at 1,100 RPM, which its normal idling speed. This is normal since the clutch is depressed. If I let the car rolling with the engine off, it won't restart, only depressing the clutch will restart the engine. I can't try to restart with the key while car is in gear. Hope it's clearer, it is not something easy to describe and I'm not trolling the forum.
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