twobone Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I don't have any real automotive/engineering skill set....but have an interest in learning. If I wanted to build a Seven kit, which one is designed from the bottom up to be the most "idiot proof"? In my mind this translates into a combination of excellent instructions, all in the box components & close to zero fabrication requirements. Thanks from a newbie As an aside, here is a picture of my current ride (the 911), sitting next to a great DEMAN Motorsports kit at a Vintage race festival at MOSPORT last weekend.http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/upload/699594704_IMGP6369.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winston Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Probably a Caterham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDROCKT Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Dunno about others but I have two Ultralites in the garage and they don't seem to be too hard to understand or work on...plus, you can source virtually ALL of the parts here in the USA; many at the corner parts store or Autozone. Works for me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCh Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think you will find that no manuals are perfect, so given your objective it is probably safest to go with a manufacturer who has a pretty large customer base that has been-there-done-that. You’ll find a lot of detailed build sites online for Caterham and Westfield, and my guess is the same is true for Birkin, Brunton, and the WCM Ultralite among others. It’s probably worth seeking some of these out ahead of time to see what is actually entailed in taking the car from a box of parts to a street legal toy If you don’t want to build it at all, then I think most of the manufacturers provide rollers, or have a shop that can get it into that state for you. However, I suggest you build it yourself. Welding isn’t a requirement unless you are going with a locost, or deviating from the standard configuration, and the rest of the stuff really isn’t that skill intensive. Typically the most difficult part of these builds is cutting holes in the body (either aluminum or fiberglass) which frankly is a lot scarier than it is hard. BTW good to see another air-cooled driver on the forum -John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scannon Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I think the Caterham comes more fully assembled from the manufacturer than the others. The body skins are on and the colored parts are painted. Wiring is in place, you only have to add things like the lights and horn and plug in the engine computer and sensors. There is a segment of where they try to assemble a Caterham while the Stig is driving one from the factory to where they are working on the kit. Pretty funny but will give you an idea of what the major components are as they are assembled. The Caterham manuals are pretty evolved but you will still find things to scratch your head about. That's part of the fun and bonds you to the car. In one case quite literally, I was bonding a spacer onto the wind wings and slipped and my finger got in the super glue. Had to take the wing off the car and take it to the utility sink to soak it off my finger. Skip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manik Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Skip, With regards to the Top Gear stunt build, there were many, many items on their car which were already preassembled and otherwise built. There is no way you could build a Caterham (or Westfield) from scratch in a day. I can guarantee you the car had been previously assembled at the factory, and dis-assembled for the show. Fortunately, you can spec out a Westfield kit to be as built as you like it. Anything from a complete kit, up to a rolling chassis (here in the U.S. anyway). I would say the Westfield is probably targeted to the person who wants to do more of the building themselves, rather than final assembly. Nothing wrong with either approach though. tm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitcat Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 The Caterham's so expensive that the cost of assembly by the vendor is relatively small. If you buy a pretty basic Cat kit it will cost $40-45K, add around $4-5K to have it professionally assembled. So you save maybe 10%. Buy a used one for 1/3-1/2 that, already assembled and titled-much simpler. Or order a Super Stalker kit, they seem to be much less than the Cat kit. The Flyin Miata Westfield comes in about 1/2 between those two. Many members here enjoy building things so for some the build was part of the fun, more than a financial thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxologist Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 is Deman near you? go for the closest manufactuer. While caterham may have had the longest existance, the variety of what gets put in the car can leave a non mechanical type in dissarry. I would offer my advice that a WCM Ultralite may be a good bet as its a BEC or using the S2000 drivetrain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yellowss7 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I kept a log of my Caterham build. I completed the build in a total of 80 hours. Build manual was adequate. Help from BlatChat was excellent. Nice thing is that all the parts are included and you basically assemble it. Torque figures are included in the manual. Hardest part is identifying the right fasteners to use. Very limited mechanical skill required, if you can read instructions and aren't afraid to drill a few holes in your brand new fenders and aluminum skin. IMO Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scannon Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Skip, With regards to the Top Gear stunt build, there were many, many items on their car which were already preassembled and otherwise built. There is no way you could build a Caterham (or Westfield) from scratch in a day. I can guarantee you the car had been previously assembled at the factory, and dis-assembled for the show. tm I agree the Top Gear build was staged as is most everything they do. I have had two Caterham dealers tell me that they can assemble a complete car in 40 manhours and that the average for someone who hadn't done it before would be around 100 hours. Skip Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manik Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I agree the Top Gear build was staged as is most everything they do. I have had two Caterham dealers tell me that they can assemble a complete car in 40 manhours and that the average for someone who hadn't done it before would be around 100 hours. Skip Yeah, that's about par for the course on a complete Westfield kit. I know some of the guys at the factory will work the weekend building a car for customers. Not bad for two guys and two days. Granted they have all the cool tools onhand to do it, but you get the point. tm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian7 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 "combination of excellent instructions, all in the box components & close to zero fabrication requirements." well, can't speak for others, but my Caterham barely met the 'no fab' requirements... as for instructions and complete parts.... HA ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locost7018 Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 Actually the easiest build is to buy your first one already built. there are several drivers for sale right now. They are never really finished so you can start with a working car and improve it and gain experience from there. Once you gain that knowlege you can tackle a kit or Locost. Russ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EburgE Posted June 25, 2008 Share Posted June 25, 2008 I built a Caterham at home this winter. If you are considering a Caterham kit, PM me and I will give you a call. Like you, I have very little prior knowledge of car work. I do not dispute any of the comments above. You can view my build at www.hals7.com. --Harold Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
banjo29 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 ... If I wanted to build a Seven kit, which one is designed from the bottom up to be the most "idiot proof"? In my mind this translates into a combination of excellent instructions, all in the box components & close to zero fabrication requirements. Sorry Chuck, I would have to strongly disagree. While the Ultralite might be a fantastic Se7en, getting it to that point from the 'kit' certainly does not meet the above requirements. ... The Caterham manuals are pretty evolved but you will still find things to scratch your head about. With the Ultralite manual, you will scratch your head, until you have a bald spot, and realize "Hey! there is no manual!" I have nothing else to compare to, but with my Ultralite build, I'm certainly glad I have my TIG welder, drill press, metal chop saw, grinders, cobalt bit set, etc. etc. I would say the opposite end of the scale from what you are looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BusaLoco Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 That beautiful car (above) is a Busa powered Deman SR7 and belongs to ptrxly. Peter was a great help with my build. We sent e-mails back and forth along with progress pictures. One thing that I found when I started to build our kit was that there is a very large community of people out there who really want to help. Peter surely was one of the guys who was there for me. Thanks again Peter! Here's a shot of his car while we were deep in the sheds. http://www.usa7s.com/aspnetforum/upload/1379216689_SR7 Dec 27.JPG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MHKflyer52 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 I don't have any real automotive/engineering skill set....but have an interest in learning. If I wanted to build a Seven kit, which one is designed from the bottom up to be the most "idiot proof"? In my mind this translates into a combination of excellent instructions, all in the box components & close to zero fabrication requirements. Thanks from a newbie Towbone, Just a couple of suggestions from one who scratch built his 7 replica. 1. Pick a car or make that you like or just have to have to start with. 2. Read and research as much about that car as you can and ask questions. (Look at build sites and photos, etc..) 3. Talk to owners, get a ride from those who have the car that you want to get first hand information from them. (Try them all if you can as it will help you make up your mind.) 4. DON'T BE AFRAID TO TAKE THE PLUNGE AND BUILD A 7 TYPE CAR as it is one great experience and you will learn more that anyone can explain and it is not all that hard as it can be done at home in your garage or where ever. 5. Once you start allocate a little time everyday to the project even if you just go stare at it and think about how it will go together and then due it and before you know it you will be driving your own 7 on the road. 6. Take all the suggestions that are given and use them as a guide but build the car the way you want as long as it is safe. 7. Don't try to reinvent the wheel or redesign something that has already been proven to work unless you just have to do that as that is the biggest killer of building your own car in a respectable time frame and budget. 8. HAVE FUN WITH THE PROJECT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Birkin42 Posted June 26, 2008 Share Posted June 26, 2008 An important point to consider since you are in Canada is importation of a kit or complete car. Bringing in a rolling chassis or complete 7 into Canada, or at least Ontario is never going to happen with current regulations. I had my Birkin chassis disassembled and brought in as parts. If you want to go new and don't want to deal with finding a way to bring in a dis-allowed car, your options in Canada are very limited. There is Caterham dealer out west http://www.super7cars.com/, Deman, and I know of a guy out in Alberta that is being set up as a Birkin deal, though he hasn't brought a single car in yet and I'm not sure he know's what he's in for. There use to be a Caterham dealer in Calidonia but he has closed up. Bringing in a car or complete kit from the US, UK or any other place outside Canada is a real problem that is not likely going to change any time soon. Of course if you are looking at a car that is 15 years old or older, there is no problem bringing it in. I believe Super7Cars is only selling turn key 7's. This may be a good option though I don't know what the issues are of bringing a car from BC to Ontario. I believe Deman is willing to sell a car as turn key or at least near and are local, so that might be a good option for you. Of course finding a used car you like is always a great place to start but there is slim pickings in Canada. You can try to bring one across the border but you are rolling the dice that it won't get impounded if it is newer then 15 years old. Good luck. Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rv-4mike Posted June 29, 2008 Share Posted June 29, 2008 Ditto what Chad said about the Ultralite. I still am unable to send a PM unless I receive one first - then I can respond. If you want details PM me. Mike Wills Ultralite S2K build in progress Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ayseven Posted June 30, 2008 Share Posted June 30, 2008 Forget about Deman. Dan is no longer doing that (thankfully - it is hard holding myself from saying what I really think, but I will). Contact British American Motorworks in Montreal for anything close to you. I probably knew a little less about cars than most people out there doing this but here is my story: My Deman "kit" was a very expensive pile of parts and a nicely built frame, with extra bracing for a large motor. I have been very frustrated as I have gone along, but I see the end of the tunnel, thanks to BAM, BusaLoco and many others. It has cost probably what a Westfield would have, with a LOT more difficulty. What I couldn't do I farmed out: locating the engine and trans, making the propshaft, exhaust, fuel tank et al, BUT it is going to go like crap, and I am actually starting to really enjoy the build - but it's a lot of hard work in every possible way! Finding parts has been a real problem (fenders for example are not locally available, nor are bonnets, rear panels and on and on). You can't build Caterhams in Canada; Peter Saville-Peck won't sell you a kit, and he is the importer. Would I do it again? I dunno, what else would I have done with my time, and what else would I have obsessed over and worried about? Remember, these are English cars, and nobody in North America knows what you are talking about when you go looking for parts. Keep looking, talk to a few manufacturers, and other builders on here and elsewhere, budget LOTS for it and go for it! If you want a link to my build-so-far pics, just pm me. I WILL finish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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