Looking to build a seven kit

[JeffC]

Hey guys. I've been lurking around the site for a while, and now I want to get your thoughts on something. I've been wanting to build a kit car for some time now. Lately I've been looking at Cobras like the Factory Five. Recently at a local Cars and Coffee meet I saw a couple of Caterham 7s. I've read up on them and I am impressed by thier performance, and learned that they can be built from a kit! I've always had sports cars, and I do autocross and have done a couple of DEs. I think a Seven will fill my desire to build a kit car, and have a performance car to take to autocross and DE events.

 

My question is, which one? I've read up on the Caterhams and though they look to be quality kits, they are comparatively expensive. What do you guys know/think about the Birkin or Locost? Are they quality products? I see the Birkin kit runs $19,500 sans motor and transmission. But I also see I can buy a used Birkin, or even a Caterham, for probably less than what I could build a Birkin new using the kit.

 

1) If you were to build a Seven from a kit, which one would you get?

2) Would you build a car from a kit, or buy one already built?

3) Do the Seven kit cars hold thier value well over time, or at least as well as a Caterham?

 

Thanks,

 

Jeff

Sugar Land, TX (near Houston)

 

 

[lowflyer]

Welcome to the asylum!

 

While I don't wish to "put down" the English kit car manufacturers here's a couple of thought for your consideration.

 

Many of them are made for folks that don't have that "proud American body", you know "porkers". In my mis-spent youth I had occasion to drive a Series III Lotus 7 on occasion and found it very tight, and I weighed about 175 then.

 

Now that I am in shape (round is a shape) I find that I need a larger cockpit to enjoy. My choice was the Stalker kit, out of Florida. If you are on the "big side" this is a major consideration.

 

That brings up another point to consider... do you want to wait for the ship to bring your parts from the other side of the pond, or would you be happy picking them up at NAPA, Checker, Autozone, etc.?

 

A kit car is never going to bring the kind of money that an original or restored Super 7 will. They are essentially just toys, great toys, but toys still. Building your own car is a great adventure, but not for everyone. You should evaluate your abilities, along with things like do you have the garage space? How about your tools? Most people don't build every part themselves, although some do. On my car, I had professionals do the painting and interior work.

 

The Cobras are cool, but most insurance companies won't insure them, not even the specialty houses... another consideration.

 

There is a builder of Stakers in Texas, by the name of Suger Grove Auto. Not sure of there exact location, but someone here can probably provide that.

 

So, first try finding a car and sitting in it. Determine if you can drive it comfortably. There are a number of members of this forum in Texas, so finding some cars shouldn't be too difficult. Do, as you are doing, talk to folks that have different makes and get there opinions. Lastly, buy what you like and enjoy it.

 

 

:seeya: :seeya:

[yellowss7]

Jeff,

 

I built my Caterham in 2000. I spent 5 years reading everything about them and finally ordered the car speced the way I wanted it.

 

You are correct, the Caterhams are more expensive than some other makes.

 

I love my car and wouldn't change anything. That said If I were to do it over, I would probably buy a nicely speced USED Caterham and then take it apart and rebuild it to make sure that it's done right, and to learn it inside and out. You would save at least 20 grand that way. IMHO.

 

Just for clarification, you don't really "build a Caterham" you assemble it.

 

It's nothing like what the Locost guys do. No welding, mostly just putting bolt A into slot B, type stuff.

 

I logged 80 hours to build mine, and I have No real experience or skills.

 

As for the other makes, I'm sure the others here who own, Birkin's, Westfields, Stalkers, and Ultralights will chime in shortly about their cars.

 

Check out the Used market vs building from New. It will be hard to justify buying new, if the used market has some nice examples available.

 

IMO Tom

 

PS, if you Autox, then the 7 is the only car for you!!!!

[pksurveyor]

Jeff: the two Caterham you saw at the Car and Coffee in Uptown Park are mine. They were built by the Caterham dealer in Fort Worth. A friend of mine in Conroe has built a SV from the Caterham kit in 2005. His car runs great. If you need more information or like to have a closer look, please give me a call. I am at Eldridge and Clay.

 

Paul

[Jeff7]

Buy any 7 , you will love it.

[DB6]

I agree with what has already been said.

"Caterham" is very expensive for what it is, even more so in the USA from what I see;however the resale prices tend to be higher(due to this) and this is what I own.

The parts problem in the USA can get old real fast with Caterham due to shipping costs , low inventory, few dealers,exchange rates etc etc.Probably no better or worse than the competion tho.

"Superformance" no longer make the S1 and I know the parts available are sketchy ( almost bought one last year).

Is Birkin still sold in the USA, I am not sure.

There is Westfield, Stalker and quite a few others too.

I think a lot depends on the funds you have to spend on what is really a 4 wheeled motor bike, that looks like the offspring between Aardvark and an electric toaster.

I had a Cobra replica (22years ago) and it NEVER gave me the rush I get from a 7.(Frankly it was old and crude imoh)

Also the points raised about being able to locate parts locally is a big plus too.

I honestly take my hat off to Locost builders, way beyond my skills and patience.

In any event I think the best thing to do is Google and search and Craigs and see what is available , these cars tend to be scattered.

One point that is often raised is the time money and effort to get the cars set up right and legally registered in the US, I myself would go the way of buying someone elses blood, sweat and tears.

 

Good Luck

 

PS These cars really are like nothing else and attract so much attention it can get old explaining what it is, but it is a happy feel good car,that makes every one smile.

 

PPS (if you do buy one, and you ever get down or sad, as we all do, force your self to take it out, you will feel better, ....well till you have to pay the speeding ticket anyway,lol)

 

Cheers

 

David Bowes

 

 

:yesnod:

[JeffC]

Jeff: the two Caterham you saw at the Car and Coffee in Uptown Park are mine. They were built by the Caterham dealer in Fort Worth. A friend of mine in Conroe has built a SV from the Caterham kit in 2005. His car runs great. If you need more information or like to have a closer look, please give me a call. I am at Eldridge and Clay.

 

Paul

 

I'd like to get a closer look at your cars. Do you have a SV?

 

The place in Fort Worth; would that be Texas Motor Works? I've seen thier web site and that's where I learned about the Birkins and saw they had a couple used Caterhams. I might make a weekend trip up there to visit the place.

 

Maybe I'll see you at the next Cars and Coffee? I drive a MINI Cooper S, and we have our club meetings right after the C&C. I invite you to come out the the BMWCCA autocross races. We're already full for this Sunday's race, but they have them every month except for the hot months July - September. It's lots of fun, and it would be great to see a Seven in the mix.

 

Jeff

[JeffC]

As far as size, I am 6'2" and 170 lbs. I've sat in small cars: Miatas, MGs and the like, and I'm staring right at the top of the windshield. Becuase of m height, I would probably not get the smaller Caterham, but the SV.

 

I'm a mechanical engineer, and alway have worked on my cars. I have a small lathe, mill and drill press, but never ventured into welding, so the Caterham kits fit my abilities.

 

I like the suggestion of taking an old/used Caterham and restoring it and fixing it up to suit my desires.

 

Thanks to all your suggestions.

[yellowss7]

Jeff C wrote:

 

As far as size, I am 6'2" and 170 lbs.

 

You will fit a standard Caterham just fine. Just pull the bottom seat cushion out and put a thin piece of foam in. You will fit in perfectly and be able to see right thru the center of the windscreen.

 

Tom

[JohnCh]

You might want to take a closer look at a Westfield. They now have a version based on a donor Miata, so it is easier to source parts locally, and you can turn to Flyin Miata in CO for speed parts. Interior room falls between the Caterham S3 and SV, and like those cars, a dropped floor is available for taller drivers.

 

-John

[Hank]

Get a Westfield.

[pksurveyor]

Jeff: My two Caterham are SV. I am very familar with the Houston Police Academy because I am the track day organizer for the Houston Lotus Club (Lotus Owners of South Texas or LOST) We have held events at the academy track since 2004. The authorized Caterham dealer in Fort Worth is British Auto Specialist, http://www.britauto.net . Dick Brinks at Texas Motorworks is a Birkin dealer.

 

You should fit in a standard chassis Caterham because the later model has a longer cockpit. Since you are a mechanical engineer, you will have no issue assembling the kit. Don, my friend at Conroe who built his own SV is also a mechanical engineer.

 

Ordering a Caterham kit will test your patience. It will take 7 to 9 months to cross the pond.

 

Call me at 713-861-7068 or pkwan@landtech-inc.com. You are welcome to stop by for a trial fit.

[WestTexasS2K]

I love the Ultralite of course since I am building my second. It is built in Dallas and it uses all parts that are available in the US most from your local auto store. Ultralite styling differs from the Catherham and Birkins. It is a shorter stockier looking car than the others so it will come down to personal taste. Oh and dont forget the S2000 drivetrain that pumps out 240hp providing a very fast car that will be very competitive in any DE event or AutoX. It will take a little more effort to build the car than some of the others but if you have any car knowledge it is an enjoyable task IMO.

[oilteq]

Determine your goals and how involved you want to be with the build.

 

I have seen Caterhams, Birkins, Westfields, Superformance, Stalkers, Ultralights, and Locosts up close. The Caterhams and Birkins appeared to me to have the highest quality, but keep in mind that I may be looking for different characteristics than others.

 

There is a significant difference in the size of these cars. The larger ones provide more passenger space and can accommodate a larger engine without shortened oil pans. The smaller ones have a lower center of gravity.

 

I recommend taking a closer look at a Birkin. The web site shows a list price for a roller of $20,000, but what is shown has full body paint with stripes and other stuff that does not make the car any faster or lighter. I am sure you can buy a kit for less. I have installed the drivetrains into two Birkins, and was impressed with the overall experience. Dick Brink is the importer (817-461-7431 dick@texasmotorworks7.com), and he has always treated me well. Parts were no bigger problem for my Birkins than my Elise. I am not affiliated in any way, and at this point I do not even own a se7en:cry:. I kept both cars about two years each, and sold them for over 90% of what I had in them. If you are thinking of resale value, I strongly recommend keeping a build diary as it makes a big difference to potential buyers.

 

Don’t worry about being too tall, as you will be looking over the windshield, anyway.

 

Blaine

 

[rv-4mike]

I like to build stuff so bought a kit even though price wise you are probably better off buying a used running car. I just finished building an airplane and was going through builder withdrawal.

 

I'm also partial to the Ultralite and about halfway through the build (taking way too long - too many other projects going on at the same time). I was sold on the car after driving Loren's first Ultralite a couple of years ago. If you want details on my experience PM me.

 

As Loren mentioned the Ultralite is a different look than the typical Seven. Most Seven enthusiasts either love it or hate it - doesnt seem to be a middle ground. To me most of the other Seven's look "quaint", while the Ultralite looks all business. But again that is a matter of personal preference. Regardless of which Seven you choose, you cant go wrong on the performance. For a Seven the Ultralite is actually pretty roomy. And I love the Honda drivetrain.

 

I actually started out looking at a Cobra. A friend of mine built a Factory Five Cobra. They are beautiful cars. But I changed my mind after I drove his. They can be fast, but they are big, bulky, drive like a truck, and because of the really wide trans tunnel they are actually less comfortable than the Ultralite. If you want a car that looks fast a Cobra is a good choice - if you want a car that IS fast you're looking in the right place.

 

I will contradict a previous poster on Cobra insurance - at least in buddies case insurance was easy and actually pretty affordable.

[MHKflyer52]

Hello Jeff,

 

I am one of the few on the site that can actually say that I built my 7 replica from scratch and I do mean from scratch.

If I were to due it again for my self I would duplicate my car with some very minor changes just to make a little more room for accessibility and ease of maintenance and comfort but basically keep it the same overall size.

If I had the resources to spend without having to justify to my loving wife I would just buy a Caterham built to spec for me. But due to being a penny pincher that I am I would look for a nice used Caterham first and due a complete inspection of the cars suspension, steering gear, pedal assemblies and electricals to insure everything is correct and working. I would defiantly have the engine and gear box looked at by some one that knows the drive train that is in the car as you will find several different combinations in different cars and if it seems to be what I want and think it is a good deal then I would buy it and rebuild the things that will show up on all of the 7 type cars over time.

One thing to remember when you own a 7 is you will have a car that overtime you will know every nut and bolt and have more to talk about than most people realize about a car and have a smile every time you come back from a ride or just working on your car.

In a nut shell all of the 7 type cars are a lot of fun and more car that most of us realize so get what you want and the most for your money and try to get as many rides in the different makes to help you make up your mind on which 7 type car is best for you.

 

Here is a link to some photos of my 7 and build enjoy.

http://picasaweb.google.com/MHKflyer52/ALotus7ReplicaLocost

 

[solder_guy]

Buyers in the Southeast should consider buying a Stalker kit which is made in Bradenton, Fla. The cult is strong in that one!

 

This is the way that I would go if I had it to do all over again.

 

Rob

[Kitcat]

Definitely a "three beer" question. I don't think there any bad Seven kits. All are wonderful but do bring their own pluses and minuses.

 

As the buyer of a used Caterham two years ago, I can speak about that experience. First, for me Caterham was very attractive aesthetically. I just loved the look. Performance was secondary. I got hooked on the car in the early 60's, when there were no clones, so I became imprinted on the shape (and still prefer it).

 

I was very attracted to the Ultralight too because the price was excellent and it spec'd out as a more modern car, while the Caterham seemed a bit "olde" English, technology wise. Like others, I wasn't as crazy about the Ultralites chunky appearance. Also the off center instrument panel would drive me nuts. Maybe it can be (or has been?) fixed but when I looked at that kit, the tach, etc, were over in the middle of the dash.

 

Birkin seemed like the hot ticket to me. It had the look I liked and was much less money. Used ones sell for less than used Caterhams but they cost less to start with. I suspect resale values are no worse than Caterhams.

 

If I were starting over with a brand new car, I would be tempted to go with a Birkin. Dick Brink as noted sells them and is a supporter of the whole Seven experience. However I never heard from him when I sent an inquiry so I bought my Cat. I did get a reply some time later but it was too late, I was the owner of my Caterham. Next time I mite be more patient.

 

Westfield make a great car but I am not taken by the look. Still, the Miata running gear seems brilliant. On the other hand, in spite of my concerns about British "reliability", I have had zero problems with my 1700 cc Kent Crossflow, which has 23K miles on the clock. Not the most powerful engine but perhaps makes the best sound, at least to my ear.

 

Stalkers can look like cobbled together back yard specials, or can have Mercedes-level fit and finish. It all depends on the builder. They and the Ultralites seem to weigh about 200 pounds more than the standard Caterham/Birkin. If you look at the my-rides section of this site you will see some Stalkers that are just beautiful. They are also very powerful and will leave my little Crossflow in their dust (in a straight line, at least).

 

As far as the advantages of buying used, I obviously was attracted to that approach. There is instant gratification-no waiting for the car to be shipped, built, etc. Also, the car has already been titled, the mechanical gremlins have been dispatched, etc.

 

As I discovered tho, a used car is a USED car. Mine was 10 years old and only had 13K miles. But what that meant was it had barely been used and was suffering from that lack of use. Thus far I have replaced the tires, hoses, fluids, spark plug wires, ignition module, rebuilt the starter, rebuilt then replaced the solenoid, replaced the engine mounts, added an ignition cutout switch, replaced the standard rollover bar with the FIA bar, added aluminum honeycomb protective cladding to the fuel tank, replaced the speedometer angle drive, and the speedometer cable, replaced the 3 point seat belts with 6 point belts, the clutch slave cylinder, replaced a bunch of broken rivets, fixed several burned out lite bulbs, added a protective car cover, had the engined tuned 2x (cost $800), replaced the battery, wiper blades, brake pads , had it aligned, replaced the CV boots ($500/installed) and I have a new carbon fiber race seat and all new suspension bushings waiting to be installed. So did I save money? I doubt it. All of the above was done by master mechanics charging around $100 an hour. So used can be good, but make sure the car hasn't just been gathering dust for years.

 

Since there are so many Seven variants, the first step should be deciding how you are going to use it. Is it mostly a track car that will be towed to and from the track? Perhaps a bike engined car is the way to go then, they weigh under 1000 lbs and are very powerful and who needs reverse at the track? Are you primarily going to be part of the Cars & Coffee scene? I

[powderbrake]

JeffC:

I am going to encourage you to visit Brian Anderson at World Class Motorsports, the builder of the Ultralite S2k. He is in Lancaster TX, only about 3 hours from you. I built an Ultralite kit, and I am very happy with it. There is no welding, and the frame is powdercoated, and it comes with the skins installed. The Honda S2000 is a great, reliable and bulletproof motor and transmission. My S2000 drivetrain was from a wrecked car, and I have never had to do anything to it except change the oil. The component parts of the kit can all be sourced in the USA, and easily available. The other thing I like about it is the suspension is all adjustable, with metal heim joints, no rubber bushings. In the rear is a 10 link IRS with a Subaru limited slip diff. see WCM

 

The previous replies that suggested you sit or ride in several sevens is of primary importance. First, you have to fit in it comfortably. ( I can't do that in a standard sized Cat or Birkin) You have to evaluate the seating and driving positions, and how you feel about the appearance of the car. This will give you a chance to consider if you want the Lotus provenance, or a departure from the classic shape is agreeable to you. You also need to consider the general use. If you are racing, then insure the rollbars will meet the specifications. You may need to consider weather gear, if you plan to use it in all weather and longer trips, or if you don't mind getting a litte wet at times, no top is needed. ( I have had my S2k for 4 years, I don't have a top and only got caught in the rain once, at the USA7s gathering at the Tail Of The Dragon )

 

All the available kit models will deliver a solid, fun car. You, the builder, will determine the ultimate appearance, quality and reliability. I was in the same position as you are, I wanted to build a car, didn't want a lot of metal cutting and welding. I looked at Cobras, and hot rods, and settled on a Seven. That was the smartest thing I did. The building (assembling) of a kit car is one of the most enjoyable things I have done, and at the completion, you have that great sense of accomplishment. I did not even consider buying a completed car.

 

So, look at them all, sit in them, drive them ,and whatever you decide upon will be a great choice, because it's a Seven.

 

 

:7head:

[BusaNostra]

When Chapman left, he didn't know rabbits were taking fertility pills.

Confuse which 7?

 

:lol: