Caterham transmission and brake options

[ce1984]

My dad and I are considering the purchase of a Caterham SV (we're both fairly tall) most likely with the SVT engine. The question is which transmission to get: the Sierra gearbox with longer first gear, or the Caterham 6-speed. I haven't really been able to find anything that comments on the differences. Can anyone comment on shifter feel, wheight diffrence, durrability, the ideal ratio for 1st gear, etc. ? I'm guessing that if there was enough of an impetus for caterham to design a propreitary transmission than the one from the Sierra was less than ideal.

 

Also, is the standard brake package sufficiant? The car will be used regularly for autocross and spirited street use, but will probably rarely see real track time. Are the ventilated discs and 4-pots the extravegance that they seem to be or are they really worth the extra grand?

 

 

I'd appreciate any input.

 

Thanks, I'm glad to have found these forums.

 

ce1984

 

 

P.S. If anyone has any recomendations about which dealership to buy through it would be much appreciated (I live in NC) Also curious what the turnaround is between placing the order and receiving it.

 

EDIT—Just to clarify, we would be building this as a kit.

[yellowss7]

Welcome to the world of 7's! My understanding is that the 6 speed was developed for the high reving K series motors as they needed the close ratio's to keep the engine in the power band. I happen to have a k series with the 6 speed and it is a blast. However, 6th is 1:1 ratio. There is no crusing gear like on a 5 speed. So if you're going to do long highway drives, the 6 speed can be tiring due to the higher revs.

 

I believe the 5 speed is a good match to the ford motor. It's a little less expensive as well. The 6 speed is a strong gearbox, with great feel. Very smooth and short throws.

 

As for autocrossing, most course are done in 1 and 2 with very few requiring 3rd. At least in my experience with the 6 speed. Max rev's in second is around 70 mph in mine. Guess it also depends on what rear ratio you are going to run with. I have the 3.62 with the six speed although for pure accelleration the 3.92 would be quicker at the expense of the top end with no overdrive.

As for brakes, I belive the standard brakes are more than up to the task in normal use. You don't have to use them too much. Again that being said I ordered mine with the upgraded big brake option. If you were doing track days it might be worth it but for autox, you're not going to get brake fade, Hope that helps. Tom

[Boxologist]

i would opt for the Cossie duratec. or any duratec. better clock than the zetec, svt or not. read up on blatchat.com for thoughts from the larger community.

 

if u start performance optioning an SV, u end up near the price point of a CSR. the extra rigidity of the CSR make it more viable, even with a lesser engine.

the CSR comes with the big brakes standard, so thats a bonus right there.

 

from what i read on the caterham UK site, the 6 speed is now made in a "touring" model, so i expect that to have an overdrive. u should check for its availibilty stateside. also the sierra has no drainplug on the tranny. the caterham 6spd unit does afaik.

 

http://usa7s.com/aspnetforum/Default.aspx?g=posts&t=748

Al and my drive over the weekend. Al has the big brakes in a superlight. if he jammed on them there would be no way i slow down, so will eventuallly get them for the heavier SV. even outside of competition, the extra 1" diameter is a big plus with brake torque.

[yellowss7]

I think the Touring option is the 3.62 diff combined with the 6 speed. I don't think they actually change the gearing in the box. And I agree, the Duratec would be the engine of choice if I was building a new one. Tom

[Al N.]

CE-I think the best person to ask would be a dealer...generally speaking, you should visit the nearest one to you..., which I think would be Chip Bond at GT-Classics in VA. There's a newish dealership in FL, too.

 

I've actually not compared the Ford 5 to the Caterham 6 back to back, but have driven both of them at various points. I have the 6 and have driven it on the highway for extended miles, and it is amusing but certainly not relaxing. Great for carving up the backroads in my area. One point that I'll make is that apparently the 5 speed box does not have a drain plug or perhaps it's very inconvenient? The 6 does have a plug.

 

The other guys who've chimed in are spot on, I think. If price is no object, obviously the CSR 260 is the way to go. You get the larger body, the big brakes, the hot motor, etc. That said, even a 140 hp Classic is a blast to drive. The cars are so quick and nimble and so NOT like "normal" cars that the differences and options you're talking about would be realy just nuances (IMHO). As for the brakes, my car does have the big brakes, but I've never really pushed them nor ever found them wanting.

 

As for fitting into the car...lots of tall guys have the narrow bodied cars...it's the width you are really gaining. When Jon (Boxologist) sat in my car over the weekend, I think he only then really appreciated how tight the narrow body cars are in terms of hip, shoulder, and elbow room.

 

Would love to know how you found the forum. And since you're in NC, you should be aware that over 60 of us will be hitting the Tail of the Dragon for a group meet July 6-8 2007. There will be virtually every permutation of Caterham, and lots of other great LSiS options to see and talk to owners/builder/designers about. We'll post something on how to be involved if you don't have a car or at least one in build sometime in May.

 

The cars are great and so are the people. Welcome aboard.

[stevet]

I thought the bigger brakes were now standard, but I guess not.

 

If you get the 5 speed, definitely get the longer 1st gear. I do occasional long runs in my Caterham and find 5th gear relatively relaxed (in the sense that most things are relative in these cars!). I've also heard the 6 speed can handle more power than the 5 speed - but like Al says, probably best to check with a dealer.

 

Steve.

[Kitcat]

Please share what you eventually decide and why. There are others on this forum, like me, also thinking about getting our toes wet. There are numerous 7 options both at Caterham (pronounced Kate-trum, I am advised), and with the various other 7-clones. Its all sort of overwhelming, in a wonderful way.

 

This site used to have links to the other car vendors but I don't see it now. Perhaps it was blitzed in the switch last weekend when the forum switched software?

[Al N.]

KitCat-I'm sure Mazda will be adding back functionality as time allows. Additionally, some folks should be penning short blurbs on each marque - to help alleviate the overwhelming nature of it all.

[slngsht]

KitCat-I'm sure Mazda will be adding back functionality as time allows. Additionally, some folks should be penning short blurbs on each marque - to help alleviate the overwhelming nature of it all.

 

 

Oops. Kitcat, thanks for the reminder. I will have to add that functionality back in. Completely forgot about that one. I will really let the developers and testers have it this time :rofl:

[xflow7]

KitCat-I'm sure Mazda will be adding back functionality as time allows. Additionally, some folks should be penning short blurbs on each marque - to help alleviate the overwhelming nature of it all.

 

I will plan to put some collected wisdom of 5spd vs. 6spd in the Caterham one I'm doing. I've made some good headway, but have neglected it recently in the chaos of trying to move. Might be a good activity in the hotel room this weekend.

 

Mazda, just saw your latest avatar. That's a bad-ass look for the car. :thumbs:

 

Edit: Also noticing my avatar now looks very small. I'm going to have to re-size that image in order to cure my avatar envy. I already have power envy looking at most others on the forum. The last thing I need is a complex about the size of my stinking avatar. :bigears:

[ce1984]

Thanks all for the input.

 

Based on the US Caterham website, the cost for an SV with Zetec + Caterham gearbox is 29,500 + 11,900 = 41,400

 

The CSR is 44,000 + 23000 = 67,000

 

Thats a difference of $26,000.

 

I wish I could say money was no object, but $26,000 is a LOT.

 

I'm leaning towards the Caterham gearbox; I think I could cope with the less than ideal cruising gear. As for the engine though, what's wrong with the Zetec? Obviously I would prefer the Duratec as well but I have a hard time justifying the price.

[yellowss7]

I don't think there is anything wrong with the Zetec. But I believe the Duratec has more potential for power upgrades. I "think" that the Zetec tops off at around 220 bhp before it becomes prohibitive. The Duratec comes in a 2.0 or a 2.3 both of which can make 240+ and up to 300 respectively. Not cheaply though. There might also be a slight weight penalty with the Zetec vs the Duratec, but I don't have the weights to back this up.

 

 

 

 

[Boxologist]

the duratec block is about 40#s lighter than the zetec block, and nearly a decade of metalurgy improvements in it.

 

an yes, a caterham will be expensive. maybe consider holding off till u see the other manufacturers at 7-7-07.

 

i have an SV that power and brakewise is pretty basic. its the best thing on the road 99 out of 100 times. but anytime i start dream that i want more from it, the dollar signs get very large. with mods that vary from creature comforts to pure performance any budget can be completely consumed and obliterated very quickly.

[slngsht]

any budget can be completely consumed and obliterated very quickly.

 

:iagree: :cry:

 

:leaving:

[Al N.]

Another 2 cents...when I bought my car, it was between the one I have and an older chassis with a new Duratec... Keep in mind that I was shopping for a fully built car. But the solutions available a few years back weren't really factory-authorized (as they are now) and I was, admittedly, afraid of the risks of sorting it out between myself and the builder.

 

Since I think you're leaning toward Zetecs, keep in mind that there are a few..I don't have an SVT, but the older Zetec Supersport. One thing I know is that my car has individual Throttle Bodies whereas the SVT does not (I think). At last year's Skyline East cruise, Scott L. brought his SVT motored Superlight and I'm pretty sure it has an air intake to the aft of the engine that stays below the bonnet. Whereas my air fiter goes right over the trumpets and sticks out a cut out in my bonnet. And the induction noise is pretty hairy.

 

Here's another suggestion for you...

 

Buy a chassis less tranny and motor. And check out Raceline's motors. Perhaps a Quaife sequential box. This route may be cheaper than Caterham's "turnkey" solutions. And you can fit an alternative motor... just check out Skip C's Miata motored SV. Or consult with one of the bike-engined guys here. Or...if you want to be our hero, get one of those RST V-8s (which will surely complete consume and obliterate your budget!)

 

 

[JohnCh]

I’m with Al. I have a 2.0L Duratec in my Westfield that I installed using a combination of Raceline bits and some custom made parts. The latter was a result of my being a very early adopter, and not something you would face now that we have moved on several years. In addition to Raceline, SBD & Cosworth offer conversion and performance parts, and complete engines are available from all three plus Raceco. If you go with an Emerald ECU, then they even have engine looms available to simplify that process.

 

The SVT head flows really well. In fact, I’ve heard that it flows a bit better than a stock early Duratec head (the later 2.3L heads from the Focus flow a bit better). However, you can increase the flow of the early Duratec heads very easily by removing a small tumble in the exhaust port. According to Ammo at Raceco this little mod improves flow by ~6%.

 

Regarding the gearbox, if you go with a Duratec, then I think a 6-speed is overkill. In fact the owner of one of the earliest Duratec Caterhams in the UK actually replaced his 6-speed with a BGH 5-speed, because the ultra close ratios were wasted on the Duratec’s broad torque curve and he felt he was losing out by shifting all the time.

 

-John

[ce1984]

I just checked out the raceline website. A comprable engine to the Zetec, power-wise (at least initial power) would I suppose be the 2.0L Duratec 180. The listed price converts to 11,080 which is in the same range as the Zetec.

 

The engine/transmission kits on the caterham website say that they include everything needed to install given that you have the chassis kit. If we got the chassis from caterham and an engine from raceline, which additional parts would be required? Are things like engine mounts included as part of the chassis or the engine?

[yellowss7]

If you're importing an engine from England, don't forget to factor in import duty, shipping and crating costs, and if your state requires sales tax to be computed when registering the car add that to the cost as well. Speaking from my experience. :ack:

 

One of the guys here in Pa. put a Zetec in his seven, and I'm pretty sure he bought it from a Scrap yard and I know he only spent a couple of grand on it. I'll email him for the details. Tom

[Al N.]

Even a new ZX3 crate motor is cheap...check out wirewheel.com, I think Hayes Harris has one or two.

 

You could then build it up with Raceline's head...or the FocusSport/Cossie head.

 

Wonder if Duratec blocks are easy to find....

[Al Carbonio]

Get a 5 speed w/ the Duratec, in a Caterham. SVs are heavy, over there they're referred to as FB (Fat Bas...).

 

If you don't care about retained value I guess you could consider a clone

 

I'll have a 2.0L Duratec for sale later this summer, turnkey, w/ all SBD goodies etc. It's around 200 hp. Absolutely trouble free, they're great!