Interesting chat with VW HQ

[Warren Nethercote]

Be careful about preferring electric brakes over (hydraulic) surge brakes. Some (most?) electric brake controllers work on a surge basis, but based on direct deceleration of the tow vehicle rather than the trailer over-running the tow vehicle. Of course, the electric brake controller always offers the option of applying trailer brakes alone to damp a fish-tail, which a hydraulic surge-brake system can't do. In that regard I echo your preference for electric brakes.

[slomove]

.... In that regard I echo your preference for electric brakes.

 

Me too. I had hydraulic surge brakes on my trailer for several years. They do work quite well when they work and I used to prefer them for simplicity reasons. No cabling, controller etc.

 

However...they were a bit finicky. I rebuilt the brakes a few times because the master or slave cylinders got stuck. Not exactly sure why but maybe just cheap junk. After I changed to electric brakes, so far no problem for a couple of years.

 

For the surge brakes in Europe I remember that my dad's boat trailer had mechanical surge brakes. A draw rod linkage on the coupler activated the drums. Worked pretty good and reliable. But that was 40 years ago and I have no idea what they use nowadays in Germany. I guess electric brakes as well but not sure.

[bigdog]

Me too. I had hydraulic surge brakes on my trailer for several years. They do work quite well when they work and I used to prefer them for simplicity reasons. No cabling, controller etc.

 

However...they were a bit finicky. I rebuilt the brakes a few times because the master or slave cylinders got stuck. Not exactly sure why but maybe just cheap junk. After I changed to electric brakes, so far no problem for a couple of years.

 

For the surge brakes in Europe I remember that my dad's boat trailer had mechanical surge brakes. A draw rod linkage on the coupler activated the drums. Worked pretty good and reliable. But that was 40 years ago and I have no idea what they use nowadays in Germany. I guess electric brakes as well but not sure.

 

Hydraulic.

[rnr]

And what of the statement from VW?

 

Who did you speak to at VW - was it engineering or some customer service person? While I don't doubt the statement itself the fact is that unless if came from the head of engineering it will not carry much weight in the real world. We have all had interns answer the phone and say/do dumb thing and what they said to you sounds like a remarkable PR blunder regardless of the truth of the statement.

[bigdog]

Your reply would make perfect sense were it not that VW engineers already allow the structurally identical Jetta chassis (the German Jetta's come from Mexico) in Europe to pull 3000Lbs then drop it back to 1000 for the US clearly shows that the US cars can pull the same load as the European cars. And that's the point I have been making all along. It's clearly down to marketing.

[jimrankin]

A friend of mines brother owned a large shop that built mostly trailers for rental fleets but would also do custom built one offs for the right price. They installed nothing but surge brakes on the rentals and nothing but electrics on the one offs even though they were buying the surge units and complete axel assemblies in bulk direct. His comment was that they had to use surge on the rentals because most tow vehicles were not set up with an electric controller. They did only electrics on the one offs because they were a better design and the customer would be happier with their product in the long run.

He did comment that the fleet trailers brakes were adequate and got enough use and maintenance that some of the usual surge problems like drying out seals, rust from lack of use/moisture in the system from sitting unused for long periods and no automatic shoe adjustment (from braking while reversing) didn't happen as often.

I have four wheel electric brakes on my 24' enclosed car trailer and have pulled it with no problem with a 1500 Silverado (although I do feel more secure pulling with my 2500HD).

My boat trailer came with surge brakes that were a problem within a couple of years (moisture in the brake fluid leading to rust in the master cylinder while stored for the winter). I also didn't like the "non adjustable" amount of braking and the "bumps" as the brakes applied and released so rewired the trailer and replaced the brakes with electric and have been happier ever since. It is a fairly heavy boat, 22' with a cast iron 350 and Volvo DuoProp outdrive so that may have been part of the surge problem, they are probably made to cover a wide series of weights and might have been much better with a lighter load.

[Klasik-69]

Electric brakes can be adjusted to a greater degree than hydraulic surge brakes, and as others have pointed out, can be tapped to straighten out a trailer without applying the towing vehicle's brakes. U-Haul uses hyd surge brakes because most customers don't have electric brake controllers. I've had two boat trailers with hyd surge brakes that failed within 2 years of being in salt water even though I thoroughly fresh water rinsed the trailer after each use.

 

Bigdog, I have no doubt the Jetta TDI can easily pull 3000 lbs, maybe even more. My concern is its ability to stop the load without trailer brakes in a quick or safe distance. With trailer braking, no problem

 

By the way, just heard Dodge Ram is equipping a new 1500 ram pickup with a smaller V6 diesel with around 200 HP for lighter duty hauling

[Z3 Stalker]

GM also will be putting a small diesel in the newly designed Canyon sometime next year. I assume it will be an Izusu engine the same the Duramax but do not know for sure.

[bigdog]

But again, my issue is with the double standard that EVERY auto company in the US market displays. Even if a trailer has brakes they still say verboten. I just don't like that for the 80% of the time that I won't be pulling a trailered 7. I have to put up with 10MPG less fuel economy as well has having to shill out 10K more because it's an SUV. As the wife will retire soon and I'm already retired. We have no desire to have both a tow vehicle & a fuel efficient car for when we aren't towing.

[coffee break]

If a vehicle is out of the warrant period, what it to stop a driver from towing a barge (with brakes) with a compact car?

In the US of A we retain the right to due what ever pops into out head. :flag:

[Warren Nethercote]

The risk is that your insurer might walk in the event of an accident. If the tow was obviously overweight you might attract attention from the compliance inspectors who normally focus on trucks: in most jurisdictions they have ticketing authority. The loss of coverage is the bigger concern in my mind, not to say that I haven't been there .....

[bigdog]

If a vehicle is out of the warrant period, what it to stop a driver from towing a barge (with brakes) with a compact car?

In the US of A we retain the right to due what ever pops into out head. :flag:

 

Because we are retiring and want a car we can keep for a long time, not spend a fortune buying and fueling. And not lose the drive train warranty. All because of a marketing ploy to dupe the easily dupe American's.

[bigdog]

The risk is that your insurer might walk in the event of an accident. If the tow was obviously overweight you might attract attention from the compliance inspectors who normally focus on trucks: in most jurisdictions they have ticketing authority. The loss of coverage is the bigger concern in my mind, not to say that I haven't been there .....

 

the same answer applies to you as it does to RNR's post.

 

Your reply would make perfect sense were it not that VW engineers already allow the structurally identical Jetta chassis (the German Jetta's come from Mexico) in Europe to pull 3000Lbs then drop it back to 1000 for the US clearly shows that the US cars can pull the same load as the European cars. And that's the point I have been making all along. It's clearly down to marketing.

http://www.usa7s.net/vb/images/buttons/edit.gif

[Klasik-69]

Well, not to argue with you but the logic here doesn't really make sense.

 

1. VW sells the Touareg in the US and in Europe

2. VW sells the Jetta TDI in the US and in Europe

 

Why are marketing forces here in the US different than they would be in Europe ? Why would VW want to sell you a Touareg here in the US but are perfectly happy with selling you the smaller and lower priced Jetta in Germany ? And, assuming they are trying to steer you away from the Jetta as a towing vehicle, why would they assume you are necessarily going to buy a VW vehicle as a tow vehicle ? The reason why I bring this up is the Touareg is a very high priced SUV that doesn't compete well against others in the same category that are priced lower (gas versions) or is it the diesel option that seems appealing here in the US where diesel prices are HIGHER than premium gasoline ?

 

I must admit I am confused by this LOGIC. If we were talking about a vehicle choice in Europe where there diesel fuel is priced lower than gasoline and the choice therefore is so much clearer, I could understand. However, if my understanding of the original premise is correct, we are talking about a USA vehicle choice. But even if we were talking about a European vehicle choice, there are a whole lot more diesel engine powered vehicle choices there than here and again, VW would be in much tougher competition. IF we are only talking VW vehicles, as if there are no other vehicles being produced like M-B, BMW, Land Rover, Toyota, Nissan, etc. then maybe the argument and logic would be plausible. The fact that you have chosen a M-B vehicle seems to pretty well prove my point.

 

Is there something here I am not understanding ?

[bigdog]

Well, not to argue with you but the logic here doesn't really make sense.

 

1. VW sells the Touareg in the US and in Europe

2. VW sells the Jetta TDI in the US and in Europe

 

Why are marketing forces here in the US different than they would be in Europe ? Why would VW want to sell you a Touareg here in the US but are perfectly happy with selling you the smaller and lower priced Jetta in Germany ? And, assuming they are trying to steer you away from the Jetta as a towing vehicle, why would they assume you are necessarily going to buy a VW vehicle as a tow vehicle ? The reason why I bring this up is the Touareg is a very high priced SUV that doesn't compete well against others in the same category that are priced lower (gas versions) or is it the diesel option that seems appealing here in the US where diesel prices are HIGHER than premium gasoline ?

 

I must admit I am confused by this LOGIC. If we were talking about a vehicle choice in Europe where there diesel fuel is priced lower than gasoline and the choice therefore is so much clearer, I could understand. However, if my understanding of the original premise is correct, we are talking about a USA vehicle choice. But even if we were talking about a European vehicle choice, there are a whole lot more diesel engine powered vehicle choices there than here and again, VW would be in much tougher competition. IF we are only talking VW vehicles, as if there are no other vehicles being produced like M-B, BMW, Land Rover, Toyota, Nissan, etc. then maybe the argument and logic would be plausible. The fact that you have chosen a M-B vehicle seems to pretty well prove my point.

 

Is there something here I am not understanding ?

 

Don't worry about a bit of back and forth, It's how we learn. As long as it remains civil.

 

My main contention is that for those of us that do not have a huge load to haul (which to be fair is most people) have very little choice in America for buying a new vehicle to do a little bit of towing.

 

1. VW sells the Touareg in the US and in Europe

 

While VW doesn't sell many Touareg's in either market. They don't sell in Europe for very different reasons than in America.

 

2. VW sells the Jetta TDI in the US and in Europe

 

Well they do and they don't. Yes they are the same car. But VW USA puts white out over the tow capacity on the US brochure.

 

The two are very different markets. you would have been able to answer your own question had you knowledge of the European market. You made the simple mistake of assuming the two markets are the same because they sell the same vehicle's in both.

 

The big difference in the two markets are the customers.

In Europe MOST folks will at most pull a small camper of about 1000-1300Kgs. or 2200-3000Lbs. Most only own one vehicle that must also be cheap to feed when doing normal day to day transport.

 

In America. MOST people will also only pull up to about 3000Lbs. But we want a much higher rating than that "just in case" Most own more than one car. And don't mind being in debt to maintain two or more cars.

 

That's probably the key to all this. We in America want specialized equipment. So we will buy a truck for tow duty, A family sedan for commuting. As a result the American market has become an all or nothing market.

Here's a challenge: Name a US market CAR that can pull my seven on a small trailer. Max would be about 2200-2500Lbs. That gets about the MPG of the Jetta. I'll make it easy for you. You won't find one.

In Europe there are 3 choices in the VW line alone, M-B has the C-class diesel, BMW has the 320D, 520D. Opal (GM) has several car models that runs the diesel that Chevy uses in the cruze, Audi (VW) has the A4 with the VW TDI engine. Ford has several car models. Seat (VW) has several cars models. As does Skoda (also VW), Peugeot, Citroen. They all are rated to tow.

 

The US market wasn't so different than the European market till recently. Look back at old photos of Americans in the 50'-60's going on holiday pulling a camper with the family sedan. That was quite normal.

Edited February 10, 2014 by bigdog

[Klasik-69]

You are correct in the analysis of the two different markets, and as a result, the buying trends based on needs. And I couldn't agree with you more on the differences of the tow vehicles in terms of performance.

 

Americans spend more and save less. It's a proven fact and when it comes to cars, Americans like to have big and flashy on most fronts. Being a naturalized American and having been born in Europe (actually North Africa) and one who has the majority of his family in Europe still, I'm aware of the car trends there. Fuel expense is a big item whereas ours is more reasonable, and that is likely the reason we don't mind jumping into our barges and blowing fuel out the exhaust. Americans also tend to be bigger people too (and fatter) and are more comfortable in a bigger vehicle. Check out your local Walmart for fat content.

 

Why don't you just buy the Jetta TDI and add a hitch, and tow what you need to tow ? VW will never know what you're towing unless you tell them or pull into their lot with the trailer attached. And if as you stated the same car pulls 3000 lbs in Europe, it should do the same here and not have any more drivetrain issues than over there. For you own safety, you really should add braking to the trailer, either surge or electric. Hydraulic surge would be easier since it has nothing to do with the trailer and since this isn't a boat that goes into water, the brakes should last. Good luck, be safe.

[dhubbard422]

BigDog, I've always assumed that the US trailer tow ratings on mid-size cars/wagons/crossovers is mostly a combination of marketing and lawyers... but, is only surprising that someone at a car company admitted it, even if "privately".

 

FWIW, a VW salesman told me this weekend that VW has decided to bring the diesel Tiguan to the US, maybe as an early release 2015. But this may not help me as I may have to replace a car in the very near future...

 

My new vehicle goals are similar to BigDogs (good economy and light towing) and we test drove a TDi Sportwagon this past weekend. Although the DSG trans in the Sportwagon does concern me for towing. My wife can drive a manual, but she doesn't like to and I've finally decided that both of our daily drivers should be automatics so that she can drive either of them. I expect that most Europeans would simply get the manual trans if they want to tow with their mid-siize diesel wagon... So,

 

ER, I'm curious if you'd recommend towing a 7 with a new (or new-ish) Jetta Sportwagon TDi WITH DSG... Oh, and I'd equip the Sportwagon with an electric brake controller and the trailer with electric brakes. I think the trailer empty weight is 700 - 800 pounds, so maybe 2,200 pounds with the 7. What do you think? Is the DSG bullet proof or is it a weak link?

 

FWIW, a a used BMW 328i Wagon is also on our short list. The 10 mpg fuel economy decrease is almost offset by the increase cost of diesel fuel.

 

Don

[Croc]

It is all to do with lawyers and product liability lawsuits. Manufacturers build "liability" tolerances into their recommendations as to how their product should be used. It helps in defending the inevitable lawsuits when the manufactirer can point to how a consumer has wilfully flouted manufacturer guidance. People do not understand how product liability costs are a significant component of the product cost structures in the US.

 

Reviewing my insurance claims online databases that I have access to, I cannot find a single over $10 million product liability settlement in Europe. I have pages of them in the USA. The legal burden of shifting blame is much higher in Europe than the US where it is automatic.

 

VW admitted the obvious and kudos to them for being honest. However, as consumers as a whole we are to blame for not accepting accountability for our actions and seeking the deep pockets of manufacturers.

ok thats my rant over for the day. :rant:

Edited February 10, 2014 by Croc

[bigdog]

Dhubbard422

The only issue you might have is that although the tdi does have a tow capacity of 1000Lbs. VW USA gives the DSG a zero tow rating. Again, in Europe the DSG has the same rating as the manual.

 

I could do as klasic-69 recommended. And just sod it all and get the VW anyway. But I won't give them the pleasure of getting one cent from me. So I'll go the way of the M-B.

[Klasik-69]

Go to "cars for sale" on this forum. Gjslutz is selling a Jetta TDI with Westfalia 2990 lb hitch and aluminum trailer, package deal already test proven & ready for you.