U.S. Caterham site up

[speedwagon]

As a not so proud owner of a former superformance 7 orphan (S1) I can sort of fortel the future, and while broke from fabricating unavailable parts will be snikkering at the end. shudda bought either a well documented locost or a us made with us parts storker.

[yellowss7]

I hope you are all wrong. I've had my Caterham for 14 years now. I assembled it with very little mechanical skill. It has bone stock suspension. Had it corner weighted once and it is really well balanced both on track and autoxing. I don't have the big power that Karl and Croc or even the new R500's have but with some sticky tires it is competitive with most other cars on track other than 750+hp ARCA stock cars, as I found out last

week.:ack: 180mph on the straight is not a Caterham's forte.

 

I don't have the skills to fabricate or monkey with the car like a lot of the guys on here. A well designed car that is fun on the street and track was my goal. Yes it is more expensive than it should be. But it really can play in the big boy sandbox with the GT3RSs the Z06's and even a Ferrari or so for a WHOLE lot less than those guys spend, not even adding in the lower cost of maintenance.

I really hope that they do figure it out as it is a car that is Ideal for a Leisurely Sunday drive, or an all out track day thrill.

 

Tom

[bigdog]

It's really hard to picture a "rich boy buyer" combing the gravel out of his hair and wiping standoff from his mug after a blat in a seven. I think creature comforts would come a bit higher on the requirement list for that particular demographic.

 

Most but not all "rich boy buyers" will initially buy a fad of the day item (in their world) for the express purpose of showing those that can't afford it, that they can. The fickle part of relying on such buyers comes when after having shown everyone that they are richer than you. They will grow bored with said item unless the maker of that fad of the day "ups the ante".

 

Just look at most Ferrari listings. There is a reason that most have less than 10,000 miles on a 10-20 year old car. They were purchased because it is what one does when rich. It wasn't about how good, fast the car is. They haven't sat unused because they were to expensive for the rich to operate. It was about ego gratification & projecting an image to others. Then upon a new more expensive Ferrari being released. The process was then repeated. It's very shaky ground for Caterham to be treading.

[lucky dawg]

I wonder if anyone really knows who the "typical" Caterham buyer is. Mainly bought for the track or blats on sunny days? A little of both?

 

Kind of hard to tell what type of buyer Caterham is trying to target since we haven't really seen much of a marketing campaign yet.

[randychase]

Kinda random thoughts follow-

 

Track guys are more interested in a used car than new... and there are also many track options out there that compete well on price. So when you get near a Radical price, why not buy a Radical? Or look to cars with more power and aero? Unless you are already a Seven fan. Limited market.

 

In my experience, there is not one kind of customer. But a common customer (mainly a street car) is:

 

Older. From UK or Europe, or spent some time over there. Maybe saw the car on The Prisoner and was a big fan. Now has some saved up money and wants the car he lusted after 30 years ago. This was my most common contact. My concern as a dealer, was this market is getting older and eventually it may turn into fewer sales. If one was still selling Model T's to those that saw them as youngsters, you would probably see a bell curve peaking in the 1940s.

 

There is also the customer that is a car guy, has seen Top Gear, wants the best/fastest car and money is not much of an object. These are pretty rare, so sales are limited. Think Simon and the like. But there are competing products out there like the Ariel Atom, BAC Mono, KTM X-BOW, and of course coming... the Zenos E10. It comes down to what features, styling appeals to the this limited market. One will only sell so many of any of these cars.

 

Then the younger customer that understands the experience and wants to own one. Has a good salary so can afford it. Again, not that many younger (sub 50 years old) people can afford a toy like this, so sales are limited. And again there is the competition.

 

In general, the Seven is a very niche car. The retro styling is not for everyone. The raw experience is something that one has to experience to get, and even then, many end up thinking they would rather buy a car with dealer warranty, air conditioning, and all the nice creature comforts. Once the price is near a GTR or 911 or , then it becomes a difficult sale except to the nuts like us. Problem for car makers and dealers... there are only so many nuts. And the trends are to electronic controls, paddle shifting and slushboxes, ICE, and also away from petrol... so that has to be considered also. The world is changing. On the positive, there is a place for cars without all that stuff... more simple, manual gearboxes, the smell of exhaust. But then that appeals to the nuts.

 

Now truly, there are nuts out there that just don't know about the car. So if there was more exposure, that should turn into more sales. But if the marketing is only to the converted or exposed (like those on this forum), then you do not create new nuts as much. You would only be slicing the pie up differently, not making a bigger pie.

 

The other problem, is that the car appeals more to the do-it-yourselfer. Which means kits. And often frugality goes hand in hand with the person who likes doing it themselves. Not always of course. But many existing Seven fans are less willing to pay for something that is already built, specially at a premium price. They take pride in making their own brackets... as compared to buying from the factory. Which is cool, but not great for a car maker.

 

These are the reasons sales were limited, specially after the economy shift in 2008. The big question for Caterham (IMHO)... is can they increase sales in the USA with more exposure and marketing? I believe they could have with the older pricing model. I tried very hard to get Caterham to back me at a booth at the Los Angeles Auto Show (I knew the people running it and was offered a sweet deal on a large space next to Lotus). But there was no interest in being at the show, where almost ONE MILLION people would attend. Oh well....

 

Just some thoughts. It is not an easy position to be in to sell a lot of these (IMO).

[bigdog]

All that being said Randy. I suppose the over arching point I was making is that Caterham seemingly has a made a decision that they want to make a certain amount of money. They then divide that by how many cars they expect to sell. Of course I'm being somewhat factitious. I doubt that a car enthusiast off the street (that isn't a Caterham fan boy) would be able to tell the difference between a 240 and a 620. I'm sure they would be left scratching their head trying to tell what makes the 620 double the cost of a 240. The frame while probably a bit different, Would still be built on the same line, With the same tubes, same wheel base dimensions, with the same welder. Adding a few bits of triangulation to strengthen the chassis shouldn't add a huge amount of cost. furthermore, The changes to the seven have been evolutionary not revolutionary. Adding evolutionary improvements into the manufacturing process is I believe is cheaper than a clean sheet redesign/retooling.

 

Remember the top gear episode from 2006? In kit form the car they built was 15,000 quid and 17,500 turn key. That's $25,000 & $29,400 which includes the running gear & 18-19% vat to the royal families bank account.

 

I dare someone at Caterham to tell us that eight years later in 2014 the basic four cylinder seven model is so substantially different from the 2006 model that Caterham has to ask double the money (pre-tax) Only to be nearly doubled again if one want's the 620R. yikes!

Edited May 17, 2014 by bigdog

[randychase]

I think there is indeed some Malaysian pressure for some return on investment from Tony F. Plus the whole F1 thing, which appears to be rumored to be sold very soon. Plus the loss of the marketi ng tie in with the new product line that was to be produced with Renault Alpine.

 

Having said that, I think the pricing we are seeing is much more from the US side.

[rnr]

Track guys are more interested in a used car than new... and there are also many track options out there that compete well on price. So when you get near a Radical price, why not buy a Radical? Or look to cars with more power and aero? Unless you are already a Seven fan. Limited market.

 

There are quite a few guys that want a car that they can drive to and from track days and autoX. This may be a California phenomenon (expensive houses and many nearby tracks) but I meet several people that consider a seven over a radical because it can be driven and doesnt need a trailer.

 

I was one of those guys too but now I have a trailer as well

[bigdog]

As a not so proud owner of a former superformance 7 orphan (S1) I can sort of fortel the future, and while broke from fabricating unavailable parts will be snikkering at the end. shudda bought either a well documented locost or a us made with us parts storker.

 

Caterham could close it's doors tomorrow & it wouldn't effect me in the least. Nor any other existing owner. (other than making our used cars more valuable)

 

Remember, Caterham makes very few if any parts themselves. As such we can still get parts from Caterham's suppliers. In fact, Caterham has such a rubbish reputation for parts support most use the very helpful blokes over at Redline components.

 

Arch can make a replacement chassis. So one wouldn't even need to go through Caterham for anything. The only thing I've ordered from Caterham were some Tee shirts.

 

I think that if stalker went belly up and you needed a new chassis. Where would you go for that? It's the in house hand made custom stuff that will get you.

 

As someone who owns an older seven (1983) I look at all this from a different prospective. To be honest. It's like watching your child about to make a really bad relationship decision. Ultimately it will not effect you directly, but is still painful to watch.

 

Caterham's attitude is reminiscent of the pre 2008 California real estate pricing folly. They feel they can price to the moon and folks will still line up to buy.

[TurboWood]

I think there is indeed some Malaysian pressure for some return on investment from Tony F. Plus the whole F1 thing, which appears to be rumored to be sold very soon. Plus the loss of the marketi ng tie in with the new product line that was to be produced with Renault Alpine.

 

Having said that, I think the pricing we are seeing is much more from the US side.

 

This was my impression as well. Could Caterham have simply bought the Superformance sales pitch? "We have a distributor network, larger network of known buyers, proven sales volume on kit cars/rollers, and ...."

 

Coming from the side of an automotive supplier one key issue I see with Caterham sales in the US is the sourcing strategy. If you look at the pricing of most production cars you'll find that a $20k car in the US is approximately 20k british pounds in the UK and about 20k euros in the EU. This isn't the case for Caterham since most of the parts are sourced in and around the UK. For them a 40k pound car is about $67k here. The exchange rate alone has gone up 10% in the last year. They still advertise the CSR for 45k pounds in the UK. If we could get a finished CSR here for $45k it would be very competitive.

 

Daniel

[randychase]

There are quite a few guys that want a car that they can drive to and from track days and autoX. This may be a California phenomenon (expensive houses and many nearby tracks) but I meet several people that consider a seven over a radical because it can be driven and doesnt need a trailer.

 

I was one of those guys too but now I have a trailer as well

 

I think more serious track rats understand the value of having a trailer when going to the track. Specially if the track is some distance from home should there be an oops or mechanical issue. For those that are about driving to the track, then other cars become options, such as Porsche or the Lotus.

 

But, of all the inquiries I received about Caterhams when I was in Calif... only a few mentioned track use.

[yellowss7]

But, of all the inquiries I received about Caterhams when I was in Calif... only a few mentioned track use.

 

Must be those wimpy west coast types. :rofl: Of the 14 Caterhams signed up for our New Jersey trackday in July, at least 8 of them were purchased new, with the intent to use them on track. Can't say whether the other 6 started life on the track or not, but they certainly spend time their now.

 

Just goes to show that there is no "Typical" caterham owner I guess.

 

Tom

[sdca7]

West coast track rat here! I agree that this is a niche market, and I don't expect that there will ever be a large number of Caterhams sold in the U.S. I also feel that they should be able to sell these for a bit less. But, even though I have a finite budget, given all the other options, I still am happy I bought a new R500 a few years ago. It has given me many hours of absolute bliss on the track! I weighed heavily before I bought it the fact that I could get a new Z06 or GT-R or Radical in this price range. But for me (not starting an x vs y comparison - just saying for me) the Z06 and GT-R are not nearly as fun, and the absence of downforce I think makes the Caterham even more fun to drive. Again, not meaning to start a discussion of the merits of each car, I am saying this is still the car of choice for me!

 

 

There are as many different reasons to choose one car over another as there are drivers, but I am happy that we have the ability to buy Caterhams here in the U.S. I hope it continues to be a viable option for enthusiasts here.

 

 

 

Justin

[randychase]

Must be those wimpy west coast types. :rofl: Of the 14 Caterhams signed up for our New Jersey trackday in July, at least 8 of them were purchased new, with the intent to use them on track. Can't say whether the other 6 started life on the track or not, but they certainly spend time their now.

 

Just goes to show that there is no "Typical" caterham owner I guess.

 

Tom

 

But to be fair, the logic is not really the same. If one polled track users of Caterhams, that set is still a subset of the people who were not at the track with Caterhams. My set was people inquiring about the car... not actually buyers... so that also skews the results. I should have been clearer about that.

 

IMO, there is probably not much difference between the coasts as to track use vs street.

[randychase]

West coast track rat here! I agree that this is a niche market, and I don't expect that there will ever be a large number of Caterhams sold in the U.S. I also feel that they should be able to sell these for a bit less. But, even though I have a finite budget, given all the other options, I still am happy I bought a new R500 a few years ago. It has given me many hours of absolute bliss on the track! I weighed heavily before I bought it the fact that I could get a new Z06 or GT-R or Radical in this price range. But for me (not starting an x vs y comparison - just saying for me) the Z06 and GT-R are not nearly as fun, and the absence of downforce I think makes the Caterham even more fun to drive. Again, not meaning to start a discussion of the merits of each car, I am saying this is still the car of choice for me!

 

 

There are as many different reasons to choose one car over another as there are drivers, but I am happy that we have the ability to buy Caterhams here in the U.S. I hope it continues to be a viable option for enthusiasts here.

 

 

 

Justin

 

Justin, did the Sadev install ever get down with John? I kept seeing your car in the shop.

 

p.s. I think the question is though, the price of the R500 a few years ago is a lot less than the cost of the top end Caterham now.

[sdca7]

Randy,

 

John is mostly done, just some final touches. I'll post some pictures of the completed project. John rewired most of the engine harness with better connectors than the original, and I am amazed at the quality of the build. It looks like it is going to be insanely fun!

 

Before the Geartronics/Sadev, I always had a huge grin on my face driving this car. I am imagining this is going to be outrageous!

 

Justin

Edited May 18, 2014 by sdca7
im

[rikker]

The cars were always overpriced and are now fkn nutso priced..

Because ppl are so passionate about em,Caterham in the UK has always been a company that does just about the minimum in customer support and care, and trying to buy a Caterham( or parts) in the USA is that experience diluted down; always seemed to be more like a bother to them than anything else.

The Superformance deal...I have no idea how that will pan out, I do know that I was looking to buy a new S1 around 10 years ago when they first came out and did not due to not feeling comfortable with the distributor.

Google Caterham USA and see the site it now brings up, not very good, and the dealer list and their links are spotty.

I love these cars, as I am sure all do on here, but I just feel that the name is being pimped out here in every way.

Frankly, as patchy as it was some years ago in the US it seems better that what is happening now.

 

PS, what happened to the old dealer network?,

Edited May 19, 2014 by rikker

[randychase]

PS, what happened to the old dealer network?,

 

All of the existing dealerships, as I understand it, were offered an opportunity to continue. I was sent a long contract to sign. There were things I was not comfortable with, so I declined to move forward. I will leave the details out.

 

But I will say that with very few sales per year, it is hard to justify spending much money on marketing, unless one is sure that this will equate to more sales. With higher prices, one can get more margin, which is certainly a plus for a dealer as it was really too low before. But it can also cause fewer sales. So it could be a chicken-egg thing. It is a tough place to be. I am very opinionated about what should happen and what should not (such as why I do not think you can sell the 160 here).... but I also recognize my opinions mean squat.

 

And yes, I think the previous method of doing business had some real issues, so it is for sure not like it was perfect before. I will also leave it at that and not go into details in public.

 

My 2 cents.

Edited May 19, 2014 by randychase

[powderbrake]

We have had a tradition on this forum not to negatively compare cars, not to negatively comment on the other person's asking price, and in general to be a bit more gentlemanly in or comments regarding the vehicles and their manufacturers. We are supposed to be supportive of all thing SEVEN.

 

That tradition is being stretched a bit thin regarding the latest Caterham distribution/pricing moves. If Caterham and Superperformance choose to modify their sales structure, the customers (or lack thereof) will send them a clear signal on the success of their plan. I just don't think that negative comments on their policies is in the tradition of the USA7s forum.

 

In his last comment, Randychase took the high road on reporting on his relationship with Caterham and it's distribution network. I am sure he has some juicy stories about the people or the system, but he has chosen to keep them private. Good for him.

 

Lets see what comes out of the new structure and I hope Caterham sells a ton of cars, they are after all, really great cars.

[randychase]

Yep. In the end, everyone on this forum is a fan of the cars and is almost evangelical in our zeal to spread the word. We all want the car makers to do well. We all want more car people to buy them.

 

And to be clear, though I am the Zenos guy now... I don't think the Zenos and Caterham are really cross shopped much. In other words, I do not expect to take away any sales from Caterham, nor do I see Caterham taking sales from me. I wish Caterham and Superformance and the new dealers all the best. I am a fan of the company and the cars.