A bunch of Caterham questions

[Cranky]

I'm looking at the specs for new Caterhams and I have a lot of questions. For context, I'm looking for Caterham that will be fun to drive on the roads. It will see very little, if any, track time or autocrossing. I have no experience driving anything vaguely similar.

 

1) The 280 comes with 14" wheels, the 360 comes with 13" wheels, and the 480 comes with 15" wheels. What difference does it make and why would I prefer one set of wheels over the other?

 

2) I see having a 4-point harness as an option but not a 5-point harness. I think I'd much rather have a 5-point harness. Is it easy to add a 5th "point" or would it make sense to just by a 5-point harness aftermarket and skip the Caterham option?

 

3) How important is having an LSD for non-racing road use?

 

4) How important is the plumbed in fire extinguisher for a non-track car?

 

5) Why do I want a Master Battery Switch?

 

6) What are aerofoil wishbones and how much of a difference do they make?

 

7) Their site lists 5 speed and 6 speed transmissions, but not the gear ratios. Any idea how they are set up? Any opinions as to which you think I should choose?

 

8) The cost of engine installation ($2,500) is more than the cost to build the car ($2,395). How hard is it to install the engine? If you opt for unassembled kit, does that also mean that you won't be getting the engine installation? It seems like it would be hard to install the engine in a kit.

 

9) When considering building it myself or paying to have it done, what should I consider? I have very little mechanical experience aside from changing my oil; should I even consider it or is that crazy? How much does self-building impact resale value?

 

10) Any advantage to painting the aluminum body aside from the look?

[Taber10]

One quick reply: The Master Battery Switch is an excellent "anti-theft" device for a road car. I had mine mounted on the dash, and I turn off and then pocket the removable "key" if I'm parked in a questionable area. Still, the earlier Caterhams, without the English "Immobilizer" installed, would be simple to rewire, but it gives me some peace of mind knowing I did something extra to prevent anyone messing with the car.

 

For a road car, the five speed is probably best--at least that is what RMSC, Inc. told me back in 2007. At that time, they offered a "long first five speed" as the best road option.

 

The unpainted aluminum is harder to polish or "maintain unpolished" than the painted surfaces. Not that I spend much time on the appearance of mine, but you have to "rub" it lots with Never-Dull or something to keep an even looking finish. I've NEVER washed the entire car, only wiped off surfaces, and I only do that a couple times a year. My car is definitely a "driver" and not much of a "shower" except that I've won awards at our local British car club show. Has more to do with the uniqueness of the Caterham parked among the Minis, MGs and TRs, as I'm the only "Se7en" in our club.

 

While I have 14 inch wheels on my road car, you want the "tallest" wheel and tire combination to give you as much clearance for potholes, road hazards, etc. I would recommend the skid plate from Mid-Atlantic, if they still provide them. The track/autocross guys like the lower CG provided by smaller wheels, and I guess less "unsprung" weight from smaller wheels and tires--I can't speak to that as my car is totally road.

 

The assembly cost was a very worthwhile investment for me--I was working overseas at the time and couldn't have assembled my car. You get a "professional" job, you get your car much sooner, etc. I'm not sure it affects resale that much, but is often mentioned in ads. The used cars have a limited market , and those guys looking to buy used will probably know how to sort out any issue discovered by a second owner/not sorted by the original owner. I am impressed that you are already considering that factor--I STILL have not actually worried about it, as it will be a problem for my heirs or full time caregivers, not me! Not specifically Caterham, but the number of "project" kits bought and never finished often astounds me.....

 

Good luck with your decision and your car!

[randychase]

Good replies from Taber10. Here are my thoughts.

 

QUOTE=Cranky;87225]I'm looking at the specs for new Caterhams and I have a lot of questions. For context, I'm looking for Caterham that will be fun to drive on the roads. It will see very little, if any, track time or autocrossing. I have no experience driving anything vaguely similar.

 

1) The 280 comes with 14" wheels, the 360 comes with 13" wheels, and the 480 comes with 15" wheels. What difference does it make and why would I prefer one set of wheels over the other?

 

You may have more difficulty finding replacement tires for the 13" wheels. The wheel gap is also slightly larger that you may not like as much. Otherwise I do not think for you it matters much.

 

2) I see having a 4-point harness as an option but not a 5-point harness. I think I'd much rather have a 5-point harness. Is it easy to add a 5th "point" or would it make sense to just by a 5-point harness aftermarket and skip the Caterham option?

 

It is easy at add an anti-sub belt. IMO, I would rather have it as part of the kit if possible though. If you buy the harness with the car, you forgo the lap belt and your bolts will be supplied for the shoulder harness straps.

 

3) How important is having an LSD for non-racing road use?

 

Not.

 

4) How important is the plumbed in fire extinguisher for a non-track car?

 

Not. Adds complexity and reduces storage and possibly increases a potential for someone to set it off. I do like carrying a small bottle though. More handy even because it can be used on someone else's car.

 

5) Why do I want a Master Battery Switch?

 

As mentioned it is good for theft prevention or just people messing with stuff. I like to leave the key in because it is a pain to insert and remove. But take the battery cut off switch with me (and sometimes the steering wheel). It is also good for not draining the battery when parked. Everything is off!

 

6) What are aerofoil wishbones and how much of a difference do they make?

I think for you it is only if you like the looks.

 

7) Their site lists 5 speed and 6 speed transmissions, but not the gear ratios. Any idea how they are set up? Any opinions as to which you think I should choose?

 

Some people feel strongly that the 6 speed is far superior. Me... I don't know. I am cheap and I liked the 5 speed good enough.

 

8) The cost of engine installation ($2,500) is more than the cost to build the car ($2,395). How hard is it to install the engine? If you opt for unassembled kit, does that also mean that you won't be getting the engine installation? It seems like it would be hard to install the engine in a kit.

 

Makes sense though because a lot of the work is installing the drivetrain. Bolting on the suspension, brakes, etc is not that hard. Unassembled means you indeed get a roller body and all the parts that bolt on and no engine or gearbox. By law in most states, you will have to source the engine and gearbox from a separate source.

 

9) When considering building it myself or paying to have it done, what should I consider? I have very little mechanical experience aside from changing my oil; should I even consider it or is that crazy? How much does self-building impact resale value?

 

Do it if the idea of building it sounds like a lot of fun to you. Otherwise do not. I think it does not take a lot of experience, just be methodical and careful. Plan on many trips to get tools and fluids and things you did not consider. Expect to spend 100-150 hours of time. If you do a good job I do not see resale impacted much. Maybe you can ask a bit more if you sell some day and say that a well known shop built it. But for me, after a few years on the road, that means very little.

 

My 2 cents

Edited July 18, 2014 by randychase

[TurboWood]

I'm in the process of assembling a Caterham now. I would say my wrenching experience goes a little beyond changing oil, but for the most part the things I've done have consisted of removing a bolt, changing something, and re-installing said bolt. The most significant was removing a cylinder head which did require removing the engine/transmission for the car (93 5-series BMW).

 

I give you that perspective so you can try to gauge my responses. Also keep in mind that I'm a 7-newb. There are other people on this site which could definitely give you more experienced advice.

 

1) Mine has 15". As a road car this would be my suggestion. You may want to see what tire options exist in 13, 14, and 15". Most Cat's come with Avon tires which you probably won't use after the first set goes bald. So, make sure you can find something you like in the US.

 

2) For the street I don't see much purpose in 5-point, but if that's what you want then go for it.

 

3) I can't say, but you can always change it later. Either way I wouldn't buy it from Caterham. The up-charge is equivalent (or more) to just buying the diff separately and doing the swap. You probably won't be able to sell the standard diff you pull out for much, but I think you'll still be ahead. This also gives you more flexibility on the type of diff (Quaife, Titan, etc.).

 

4) I would say not important. I would be shocked if 1% of the street 7's had this. It is for racing, but if you feel safer with it then go for it.

 

5) As mentioned by Taber this can be an anti-theft device. I'm using the quick release steering wheel for this purpose and skipped the battery switch. This is primarily for racing (required by some racing series). I'm using a rapfix quick release which is also a little nicer than the splined quick release from Caterham. There are a few UK companies that distribute them.

 

6) The front suspension arms have an airfoil shape instead of round. It's like polishing a brick. The 7 is still going to be very aerodynamically poor. I would skip it unless you really like the look (they do look kinda cool and it does go in the spirit of having a purpose built race car for the street).

 

7) I suspect you will find this to be a bit of a rabbit hole. My short version is: 6th gear on the Cat6 is 1:1, this means no overdrive and very close ratio gearing (2.69, 2.01, 1.59, 1.32, 1.13, 1:1). It is also expensive. I'm planning on using an upgraded 5-spd from SPC in the UK (http://www.spcomponents.co.uk/index.html). You may also want to check out BGH (http://www.bghgeartech.co.uk/). The main thing you want (in my opinion) is the long first gear. The 5-spd originally came with a tall 1st which isn't needed on a 7. If you search the internet I think you will find a fair bit of discussion on this topic. With a 2+L engine 5-spd is enough. The other thing to pay attention to is the final drive ratio (diff). I believe 3.62 is the most common. I have 3.38 and there are a few 3.15's around. I can't comment from experience, but you may want to get other people's perspective on this. I'm pleased with the 3.38 decision based on all the searching I've done.

 

8) I haven't gotten to the engine install point myself, but being in kit form would probably make it easier because you could do it before all the other bits were installed (more room). You will need a cherry picker, but I don't anticipate engine installation as a big challenge (much easier than a normal car). There are other steps in the assembly process which are more tricky than this for sure.

 

9) This is up to you. I chose a kit, but I am getting some help from Caterham to assemble some of the cosmetic parts which I'm not confident in getting right the first time. As an example you need to install the snaps into the trunk cover. Ideally you should buy a proper tool (instead of the very simple/cheap/painful thing that is provided in the kit). I was also worried about getting the tension even. Similar challenges exist for the weather equipment. The fenders also require some drilling. From the research I did the Caterham is supposed to be one of the better kits out there, but it's far from a lego kit that is fool proof. If you live close to someone that can help then you might give serious consideration to a kit. If getting support will be an expensive en devour if you get stuck then the roller may be the right option.

 

10) Can't comment. I like paint.

 

 

Good luck and welcome (hopefully!) to the group.

 

Daniel

[Kitcat]

For your use:

You dont need LSD.

You dont need a plumbed in fire system (doesn't hurt to have a portable fire extinguisher strapped in somewhere handy tho).

Airfoils are not needed

5 sp is simpler to shift that 6 sp & has overdrive. Mite be nice to have 6 sp with 1600 engine to maximize minimal power.

I'd add the track day rollover bar-it is much stouter than the little standard bar. Also works with full weather kit.

Having sat in both cloth and leather Caterham seats, I prefer the (cheaper and lighter) cloth seats.

 

Owner vs professional build. It depends. I had a professionally built Birkin that had to be disassembled and totally rebuilt from the ground up-so dismal was the "workmanship". Private owners who build their own cars tend to lavish time and attention to detail that a professional couldn't afford to do and still make a profit.

 

Maybe consider a used vehicle? Don't overlook the Stalkers-a whole lotta car for the $.

Edited July 18, 2014 by Kitcat

[randychase]

Stuff that was hard:

 

1. The documentation for the build is very good. Until you get to the stuff that is different from the UK builds. I do not know if Superformance has created new docs but our builds required some better information once we hit the USA stuff.

 

2. Engine changes for the top end and how to assemble the sump in what was the R400. I needed some special tools for swapping out the cams and springs. Using a stock duratec would be easier and not require much knowledge.

 

3. Those snaps. Agreed with Daniel the tool that is supplied is not what you want. I upgraded to a tool. Then try to not get the material too tight. I learned this the hard way. The temps make a big difference in the amount of stretch and better to have some slack to reduce stress on the snaps.

 

4. If you have a windshield, it is fiddly to get that rubber sealing strip looking good.

 

5. Drilling holes in the wings takes some care.

 

6. I designed brackets so I did not have to drill the body for the license plate or fog and reverse lights. They worked great.

 

7. It can be a tight fit to get the drivetrain in. We found it was easier to do with 3 people. And use a leveler on the cherry picker. One person operates the picker. One guides in around the frame. One under the car to align the driveshaft. You don't need this, but it was easier that way.

 

8. I made a list of needed tools. Let me know if you want it. In fact I documented the entire build and did a time lapse video of it and took many pictures.

 

9. If you do the build, check inventory to see if anything is missing and then notify the dealer. Some things are done at the end and then to find you are missing some critical part and it will take 4-6 weeks to get, is frustrating.

[yellowss7]

I assembled mine, in 2000 and with no skills it took a total of 80 hours of assembly time. Hardest thing for me was picking the right bolts out the bags of them. :deadhorse: The engine went in in about 5 minutes. Really.

The good thing about assembling it yourself is that you learn what everything is. Knowledge is power when it comes to troubleshooting.

 

I have the six speed and it has a long 1st gear which is great as you can actually do up to about 55 mph in it, if you're winding it out. 2, 3, and 4 are close so you can keep the rev's up if you are on track. with 6 really being like 4th on a 4 speed. No overdrive, but unless you are doing a lot of 70+mph highway driving, it's not an issue. In normal back road and up to 60ish mph the six speed is fine. On track it's great no matter what Kit Cat says. He just can't remember what gear he's in. Must be getting senile. :seeya:

 

Take your time and enjoy the learning and dreaming process. Once you put your money down, the angst, begins.

Tom

[Croc]

This will be like getting 20 different answers for each question!

 

1) Wheel size does make a substantial difference in a small light car like a seven. Less unsprung weight plus less wheel mass to get rolling means that a Caterham spins up quicker with 13 inch wheels compared to the quite heavy 15 inch Caterham wheels. For the reduction in wheel size you upsize the tire profile so that rolloing diameter remains approximately the same and you have not compromised ground clearance. A Caterham responds well to having a taller profile as it flexes more under load and makes the handling more progressive on the limit. It also improves the ride. If you try the same car back to back between 15 inch wheels and 13 inch wheels with the same rolling tire diamater most people will say they prefer the 13 inch wheel version.

 

Someone will then say its harder to get tires for 13 inch wheels. I explored this recently as I converted both my Caterhams to 13 inch wheels and I dont see the problem. It is much easier now to get wheels for the CSR than it was in 15 inch Avons. I did contemplate 14 inch wheels for the CSR but I found the tire choice was even more limited than the 13 inch option for performance tires - it was ok if you wanted $69 economy POS but not performance. Roger Krause on the west coast has a good range of 13 inch rubber.

 

2) When I bought the CSR I saw the same thing. Ask them to put in a 6 pointer (it comes to a 5th point for the buckle) - they will do it for minimal cost - best it done now. A 6 pointer provides a gap for your crown jewels to pass through should you have the worst case stop. If you dont believe me then google testicle "degloving"

 

3) LSD is really only needed for track or monster hp.

 

4) There is a youtube video out there of the plumbed in fire extinguisher in a Caterham being set off. It is really underwhelming and about as useful as tits on a bull. Dont bother and instead buy a portable one to strap/bolt in somewhere.

 

5) Battery switch - good for security and stopping parasitic load on the battery when the car is not used for the period.

 

6) Aerofoil wishbones look pretty but make no difference to lap times around the block.

 

7) For road I would go for 5 speed. The 5th speed overdrive makes for a nice cruising gear at higher speeds.

 

8) I think Randy has addressed this one above.

 

9) No impact on resale value - its a kit car anyway. I had mine built as I was just too busy with work to get free time. Ideally I would have built it as then I know the car better.

 

10) Polishing ali is a massively time consuming exercise - ask bball7754 on here if you really want to know. It looks sensational once polished. Paint is an easy wash and dry and it looks pretty good. Cover the paint in 3M if you worry about stone chips which are unavoidable. So are you a polisher or a washer?

 

 

Have fun in this process - it really is fun considering the options! Best part of buying a car. :seeya:

[breezy7]

From my experience with a Caterham used similarly to what you are describing: I had 14 inch wheels and tire selection is limited when replacement time comes. Have you talked to Caterham about different sized wheels being available with different car models not just what they show on the spec sheet? I had the standard inertia reel seat belts, as a safety issue I don't know that any seat belt will help much in an accident with these cars plus with a 4 or 5 point harness you are not able to move around the cockpit and I always wanted to be able to look over my shoulder and not rely on mirrors when changing lanes which I could do with the inertia belts. I didn't have the LSD and didn't miss it nor the fire extinguisher system though I did keep one in the boot. I installed my own battery cut off as something of a theft deterrent though it wouldn't take much to by pass it if someone was just a bit determined, I had the removable wheel which I usually took when leaving the car unattended and made getting in and out a bit easier.. I went with the 5 speed due to cost and the overdrive feature and skipped the long first gear mod, most of my fun time with the car was using 2nd or 3rd gears so a short first gear wasn't an issue. I assembled my car and though I had some mechanical experience I talked to other owners who had no previous experience and they had no problems with the build. It comes down to peace of mind. How comfortable are you going to be with the process? If you do decide to tackle it there is lots of help available from the folks on this site. To get a look at what is involved take a look at these two places http://www.thecaterhamproject.com/index. http://californiacaterhamclub.com/resources/AssemblyGuide.pdf If I had to do it over I would have gone with a painted body, bare metal is a pain and I was never happy with the results of my polishing though it can be done and does look great. Try to see what the registration policy is like for your home state it can be a bear some places and better to know now. Good luck.

Mike

[randychase]

I would add one more thing... the price of paint may tend to have me consider the bare metal and having the car wrapped once it arrives here. That would be my choice.

[Cranky]

Thanks for all of the great advice and a special thanks to pksurveyor for giving me a ride in one of his Sevens.

 

I'm still undecided about several things, but I now know that I don't need an LSD, a plumbed in fire extinguisher, or the aerofoil wishbones. I definitely want the 5 speed and not the 6 speed. I want a painted car. I'm not inclined to pay extra for leather but wouldn't mind it either. I'm skeptical about the value of the heater (at least here in the Houston area). I want a quick release wheel. A master battery switch would be nice, but not essential.

 

I was surprised at how tight the SV chassis was. I have some friends that I don't think will fit even as passengers if I get a standard chassis.

 

Thanks again for all of the help. I'm sure that I'll have more questions soon.

[ihckb2]

If some of your friends are that big you may not want them in the passenger seat.

I sure don't want my 300# brother in my passenger seat to counter balance my 160#'s, not that he would fit anyway.

[Croc]

I'm not inclined to pay extra for leather but wouldn't mind it either. I'm skeptical about the value of the heater (at least here in the Houston area).

 

I was surprised at how tight the SV chassis was. I have some friends that I don't think will fit even as passengers if I get a standard chassis.

 

 

The value of the leather over the cloth is that it ages better. The black cloth tends to fade rather quickly so that after 5-10 years it starts to look gray not black. The leather wears to a nice patina over time and retains its color better. Of course you are in Texas so I guess leather is really not that practical as it nicely fries the thighs after bring in the sun?

 

Heater in Texas? :rofl:

 

I think you have to try people in the SV chassis to see if they fit before you assume they do not - it is roomier than you may think. I have had a 6'4" 350 pound guy in my car as my passenger on track. The quip from one of the other USA7s members there at the time was "muffin top". It was not pretty but he fit once we tucked his spare tires in. It did put a substantial dent on performance though! :ack: Just check the floor rivets afterwards....

[Blokko]

1) The 280 comes with 14" wheels, the 360 comes with 13" wheels, and the 480 comes with 15" wheels. What difference does it make and why would I prefer one set of wheels over the other?

 

I've run 13's and 15's and I'd say that 13's give a much smoother road ride. In the UK you can get Yokohama A021's in 70 profile on 13's – great grip in the wet and cheap (£55 A corner). Not sure if there is an equivalent in the US? The 70 profile also gives you a bit more ride height to protect the sump.

 

2) I see having a 4-point harness as an option but not a 5-point harness. I think I'd much rather have a 5-point harness. Is it easy to add a 5th "point" or would it make sense to just by a 5-point harness aftermarket and skip the Caterham option?

 

It is easy to add the 5th point (into to the buckle) – I did it on the car that I just sold. The chassis behind the seat should have 2 lugs for you to attach the belt to. A word of warning – if you have lowered floor you will also need an extra part to pack the gaps between said lugs in the chassis and the ali floor.

 

3) How important is having an LSD for non-racing road use?

 

The Quaife ATB on my last car was lovely and quiet (much quieter than the standard Caterham diff) and when you did manage to put the mechanism into action it was nice and smooth. It would make the car easier to sell in the UK (it is an extra on the wish list of many potential buyers) but if / when I go for a car in the US I don't think I'd pay out the extra as I'm not into drifting / donuts. Had a conversation down the pub once where an 'expert' was telling me that an LSD made the car trickier to drive in the wet – not that I ever noticed, mind.

 

4) How important is the plumbed in fire extinguisher for a non-track car?

 

Not worth it on a road car IMHO.

 

5) Why do I want a Master Battery Switch?

 

Security is one point, but also allows you to run a gel battery without fear

of flattening it whilst the car is not in use.

 

6) What are aerofoil wishbones and how much of a difference do they make?

 

No idea

 

7) Their site lists 5 speed and 6 speed transmissions, but not the gear ratios. Any idea how they are set up? Any opinions as to which you think I should choose?

 

Again IMHO, but there are only 2 applications for a 6 speed box – an out-and-out track machine and in an original 1400cc Rover K Series SuperSport installation. 6th in a 6 speed is equivalent to 4th in a 5 speed. For road use this means that you will be pulling extra revs for no gain elsewhere.

 

8) The cost of engine installation ($2,500) is more than the cost to build the car ($2,395). How hard is it to install the engine? If you opt for unassembled kit, does that also mean that you won't be getting the engine installation? It seems like it would be hard to install the engine in a kit.

 

There are many people in the UK who have built Caterham's having never picked up a spanner in anger before. BlatChat is a great resource and people would help you through the build process. Could you find someone local if you get stuck?

 

9) When considering building it myself or paying to have it done, what should I consider? I have very little mechanical experience aside from changing my oil; should I even consider it or is that crazy? How much does self-building impact resale value?

 

I really want to build my next 7 so that if anything goes wrong (particularly if I'm on tour at the time) then I'm hoping to have a fighting chance of being able to diagnose and maybe address any issues. A Caterham build should be much easier than any other kit out there I would have though (disclaimer - the UK kit may come in a state of build that goes beyond the US offering). In the UK a factory build will normally sell more easily than a home build - bit not necessarily for any more money.

 

 

10) Any advantage to painting the aluminum body aside from the look

 

Cleaning bare ali is a pain. Not sure that wrapping has worked well for those who have tried. I would go for paint, but get a local spray shop to do the work. Colour co-ordinated rollbars look cool :-)

 

Other - Heater. Don't bother - in warm weather the heat escapes into the cabin. Just got back from touring France and I ended up removing the heater from the cooling system as in temps of 30C+ it was just making the cabin unbearable (even though the valve was switched off). Conversely, in the cold weather you can barely feel the effect of the heater.

 

Seats. I'm a big fan of Tillets, but I may be in a minority here. Leather looks nicer than cloth and tends to wear better - all depends on the price premium and whether you are prepared to pay it.

 

Rollbar - go for an FIA rather than the Caterham standard

 

Weather protection. See if you can purchase the doors without the full hood. Get a Soft Bits for Sevens Half Hood and shower cap instead.

 

SV - having owned both an S3 and an SV I think I would struggle to go back to an S3. That extra bit of room makes all the difference - particularly shoulder room and pedal box space. In an SV you can drive with boots on, whereas in an S3 you need to have Puma Speedcats or similar.

[JBH]

Two suggestions:

 

(1) Consider adding some of those options if for no other reason than resale. Some of the options you are deleting are of great interest to those that like to autocross or track these cars

 

(2) Consider tracking or autocrossing the car. This is where I get a bit opinionated...Caterhams are not meant nor suitable for US roads. IMO, driving the car on the road is more dangerous than riding a motorcycle (or bicycle). The Seven is a race-bred car, that back in the days, one could be driven to and from the track winning races along the way. Actually, you still can drive it to the track, but your life is far more at risk on the road than the track. Furthermore, the true handling characteristics of the car can not be adequately experienced on the road without putting you and others in harm's way.

 

I know the response about back roads, but even small animals can be a hazard when you sit just a few inches off the ground.

 

I just hate to see someone rule out the track and autocrossing without experiencing it first.

Edited July 20, 2014 by JBH

[slomove]

........... Had a conversation down the pub once where an 'expert' was telling me that an LSD made the car trickier to drive in the wet – not that I ever noticed, mind.

 

There may be something to it, at least with the Quaiffe stylle diffs. I had an event at the Infineon (back then) track in heavy rain with mud splattered all over the pavement that a (so far) reasonable corner turned into an immediate spin when one of the rear wheels hit a mud spot. I believe when the LSD loses traction on one wheel it will apply double torque on the other wheel to make up and in the wet that will lead to a complete loss of traction. Well, at least this is my theory. Could be lack of driving skills as well :smilielol5:

 

How important is the plumbed in fire extinguisher for a non-track car? Not worth it on a road car IMHO.

 

Don't agree completely. It is just another insurance level. While the risk of collision/fire may be much higher on track I installed a foam type extinguisher with nozzles covering the throttle bodies and the tank area after I had a fuel leak dripping onto the alternator. Nothing happened but I thought maybe not a bad idea.