7 Replica Manufacture

[ianashdown]

I have been looking at various scenarios to acquire a project 7. Either an original Lotus or a Replica.  These would, however, be different projects, the Lotus would be more authentic focused and the Caterham, or whatever, more performance oriented.  Somebody also suggested building my own, which I quickly dismissed as the cost of building a well engineered one-off is always going to be high. More on this later . . .

 

Looking at the Kit manufacturers it’s clear that most are in the UK, very few in the US, although it seems it’s a tough business to be in whichever side of the pond.

 

So, here’s the question.  Is there a case for another manufacturer of quality 7 replicas in the US?  The cost of shipping from the UK seems to have exploded in the last few years, so that at least gives some small advantage to Made in the USA.

 

With the germ of an idea planted, and rejected at the time, I started to layout a 7 concept in CAD.  Being a design engineer with a background in F1, ChampCar etc., I couldn’t just replicate a 7, I’d want to make logical improvements, but all the while maintaining the purity of appearance and philosophy of original concept but evolved in a way CABC might have done himself.  So, more added lightness with strategic use of Carbon Fiber.  Improved Rear Suspension, Improved brake manners, etc, but still basic, simple, light and pure 7+. The price to be competitive with the best kits available currently.  Powerplants are TBD, but I’m leaning towards alloy block Ford Crossflow, Twin Cam,  BDA or BDG with fully managed fuel injection and ignition.  Connect this to an Alloy B/H and Alloy Case Type 9, you see where this is going.  Pure to the origins of the 7, but a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

 

I, and several of my friends are engineers, refugees from Formula One, IndyCar, Sports Car Racing, some from the Auto Industry most either still in those businesses or now working in the US Aerospace industry, so collectively we have the skills and experience to take on a project like this, and understanding that the expectation is not to get rich, but to build a quality, well engineered car, mostly for the fun and satisfaction of doing it, not just for ourselves but also for a few customers who align with our vision.  Collectively we have 100+ years experience and networks of resources that stretch around the world.

 

So is it worth doing or is the market already flooded?

 

Ian

[straightcut]

Welcome Ian!  

 

Well, we must begin with ACBC.  I like the line you're thinking along!

 

You might want to consider something like a Miata 5 or 6 speed rather than the fairly rare (here in the U.S.) Type 9?

 

Cheers

Edited March 6, 2023 by straightcut

[MV8]

I'm guessing you don't (yet) weld or hand fabricate. Many people build sevensesque cars. There are many different plans available online for free in different sizes to accommodate different drivetrains but these folks are also fabricators and not always engineers. Free online software allows for analyzing the donor components to optimize the camber gain, a reasonable virtual swing arm length, and a stable roll center. Determine your track width and rack width (inner pivot to inner pivot) for minimal bump steer and add ackermann with rack set back behind the steering arm eyes if you wish. Mount the coilovers as far outboard as practical for lower damping and lighter rate (spring weight) needs. Plenty of axles and spindles to choose from. Most or too heavy duty to be efficient.

Edited March 6, 2023 by MV8

[ianashdown]

Not so good at fabricating, but I can Tig and Nickel-Bronze Braze with a gas fluxer.  I can use a lathe and can mill in 3 or 5-axis.  I can also do hi-level composites, either prepreg or infusion.  I’m very familiar with the suspension Analysis software and all the other functions that are available in CAD these days.  So I feel I have the skills to do something like this.  I think the smart thing to do is send the tubes out for laser cutting and CNC bending, the sheet metal, probably not metal in this case, is mostly flat or single curvatures.

 

The Miata/MX5 gearbox looks like it could be good, but it needs the front of the main housing reworking somehow and new Bellhousing.  The T9 is well supported in the UK and I believe we could offer new transmissions with alloy housings and ratios to suit the performance and use profile.

 

There will be lots to figure out and the supply chain will be a challenge, but I think we could put together a very cool car.

 

Ian

[IamScotticus]

Birkin just moved to the USA, Denver?

 

I Don't think the market has too many 7 makers; I don't think there are enough people who will want a 7.  

 

For those who might be so inclined, the Slingshot is an option, especially when the four wheel kits become more available.  More  people can fit in them and

there are automatic Slingshots now, for the masses.  The Slingshot IS the modern seven.  There you go, ban me .  But that's what it is, and it's gaining popularity.  When I see at least two daily in Houston, it's officially a thing, like it or not.

 

However!  I do really like the classic engine idea, staying with old punchy tech.  The formula Ford guys will thank you.

But there are other engines ready to go that very good.  I think someone mentioned the Toyota M20 going in his 7.  Although Im a Ford Purist, Toyota has some incredible engineering in the basic twin cam 1600

 

[ianashdown]

I’ve never seen, or looked for, a video of a Slingshot being cornered hard.

 

Because of this

 

 

 

I find I difficult to take three wheelers seriously.

 

Sorry. Not sorry!

 

ian

[IamScotticus]

Slings dont tip. Two in front.

But they can oversteer.

I dont know if people are racing them on tracks, but thst isn't the target consumer.  Slings are recreational pleasure craft.  They make fun rentals.

[ianashdown]

I just can’t get the looks.  Everything KTM does is well engineered, so I’m sure this is too, but the question I have to ask is what does losing one rear wheel solve?  What was the motivating factor that drove the decision chain to this result?

 

Just sayin!

 

ian

 

 

[Croc]

4 hours ago, ianashdown said:

... but the question I have to ask is what does losing one rear wheel solve?  What was the motivating factor that drove the decision chain to this result?

 

Regulatory.  Three wheels is a motorbike.  You avoid emissions and the tougher registration process that a car has to go through in all states.  That makes it cheaper to design and make and ultimately sell.

 

[MV8]

Croc beat me to it. Regulation shaping the path of least resistance the same as suvs(trucks) and essentially killing wagons for a period of time due to lower safety and emission requirements and write-offs for businesses to buy trucks.

 

Autocar/autocycle is a new category created for enclosed three wheelers with a steering wheel versus a handle bar, thanks mostly to the accident rate of T-rex trikes IMHO.

The benefits of one less wheel are numerous except for when the single wheel is the only driven wheel. The most successful reverse/ 2f-1r / "tadpole" trike for handling was the fwd citreon based Tri-Hawk (not to be confused with the R.Q. Riley Tri-Magnum). Similar performance can be had with the Blackjack Aero/ Corbin Sparrow/Merlin platform, using a vw beetle irs 4spd with a flipped ring and pinion.

 

If you are looking for a market, consider replacement composite fenders, noses, and scoops made out of carbon with a UV protective epoxy matrix.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2023 by MV8

[panamericano]

I thought the Slingshot was interesting when first introduced.  BUT, checked it and thought "why is it 500 pounds heavier than a Seven?"  Heavy tubes and thick fiberglass!  Too heavy with nothing a Seven can't have.  The new engine might be a good replacement for a Seven IF it is light. 

[Vovchandr]

Going back to the original question, the market for a new 7 manufacturer is going to be very very small with small margins. 

 

I'd wager that even if you could design a superior Caterham type replica for cheaper and have it stateside you would be bemused at the fact that it's not selling and people are buying new Caterhams instead for more money. The value is in history, support, stories and the aura around and behind an established old brand and they still struggle to sell maybe 50 units state side a year due to regulations, difficulties registering and niche ambiguity of the vehicle itself. 

 

As others have said for most who simply want an open experience a Slingshot or even a Morgan are more obvious and easier answers for people to get themselves into.

For people who want performance things like Atom are still a very popular version. It's essentially the next evolution of a modern Seven type car in different engine layout configuration. 

 

3 hours ago, MV8 said:

Autocar/autocycle is a new category created for enclosed three wheelers with a steering wheel versus a handle bar, thanks mostly to the accident rate of T-rex trikes IMHO.

 

Didn't Trex's had a steering wheel to begin with?

 

Man those were the coolest thing in early 2000's. 

[speedwagon]

Where I live side by sides are multiplying like rabbits and out weighing 7s by at least 100 to 1. Most are street legal and even seen on the streets but still scarce on the interstates.  My "buttugly" fiberglass buggy ( with doors, heat, and a turbo) is still the best all around combo. Keeps up with traffic easily, goes places the others cannot and still handles quite well. and cost a lot less than either of my 7ish cars.  john (one far less formidable won pikes peak in the sports- car class before they paved the road).  It is not as civilized as the superformance and doesn't handle near as well on pavement (mostly due to weight bias). But my 70s off road car would, and still win off-road races ( mid engine vw suspension/ 250hp turbo corvair).   But people today want something that the dealer will maintain and are willing to pay.   john

[MV8]

4 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

Didn't Trex's had a steering wheel to begin with?

 

Man those were the coolest thing in early 2000's. 

Yes. They assembled one on the series "How it's made". The main issue was how the owners used them plus being so low and small.

[IamScotticus]

6 hours ago, panamericano said:

BUT, checked it and thought "why is it 500 pounds heavier than a Seven?"  Heavy tubes and thick fiberglass!

Consider the business model, who will be buying these and for what?  Kids raised on video games.  Rule #1, they won't be turning wrenches. Rule  #2, they won't drive for the power to weight.  For this mass consumer market a vehicle needs to be bullet proof and stable.  Stable needs weight in the right places.  The T-Rex is a perfect example of outrageous power in a light package, all pimped out, driven by people not prepared for or caring about the limits.

 

Yes, I don't care for the Sling's looks, but a lot of that is due to a chopped off rear end, no aesthetic balance.  Something a bolt on rear section with wheels and a trunk can fix.  Yes, more weight. 

 

No, club racing isn't going to make a resurgence now with a new competitive street racer .  Whatever people do, they will do on the streets and roads.

 

I also believe the ideal fun car must be EV capable.  Thats a difficult set of design choices as EV is very new with few off the shelf parts with 10 year support.  When the Lotus 7 was built, Lotus had part bins from Ford and Triumph (BL) that were already supporting those components for 10 years and much of it still available today.  

What can be built today with that support?

All I can say is if you want to offer a new 7, it needs to be a lot more accommodating to the average persons needs than an S3.  Oh, thats been done, the Miata, right?  No, I think there may be a market for an open wheel, open top fun car.  But not another S3 replica.  Perhaps a refined S4.  I think Cat should have tried to revive the S4 instead of the 21 project.  The 21 was already a hard sell then the Elise just blew if away.

Business.

Edited March 6, 2023 by IamScotticus

[DavidL]

If you wanted to just build, rather than manufacture, a modern Seven, I quite like the Midlana, the mid-engine interpretation of a Seven using a FWD complete drivetrain, which is much more available that longitudnal front engine/rear wheeld drive.  See Midlana.com, there is a book, a forum, and an engaged designer.

 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by DavidL

[IamScotticus]

Midlana looks like a Meyers Tow'd.

Not a bad thing.  Does need rear fenders.

[fastg]

The Goblin has quite a following, I expected them to fold but that have continued to make kits. 

 

https://www.dfkitcar.com/

 

Graham 

[vipergeek]

On 3/7/2023 at 7:34 PM, fastg said:

The Goblin has quite a following, I expected them to fold but that have continued to make kits. 

 

https://www.dfkitcar.com/

 

Graham 

They also make rear two-wheel conversion kits for Slingshots.  I've been to their facility south of Dallas.  They are very nice folks, talented engineers and fabricators.

[KnifeySpoony]

I like the concept of a budget DIY Atom, but the dynamics of a transverse mid-engined car vs a front-engined car are very different so I don't see it as being in the same space as an Atom. Although they may seem similar in concept, in actual driving experience they are quite different. I suppose if you just want something open/minimal to cruise around in they would be similar, but driving style and limit behavior will be vastly different.