Auto repair labor market

[wdb]

Addendum: our tankless hot water heater recently needed service. Despite 30+ years of trying to find them I only know of one good plumber. But he seems to have given up on servicing the tankless system he installed, and would not return calls. So I decided to try one of the corporatized plumbing outfits, Essig. I called them, explained the situation, provided model and serial numbers. They sent a fellow out who genuinely seemed to know what he was doing. I was impressed. But he told me my unit did not have an inlet filter, which I found difficult to believe. After he left I popped the inlet connector off, reached in, and, lo and behold, there was the inlet filter. In dire need of cleaning. 

 

I was left with the impression that the fellow may have once cared more about the quality of his work, but may have had it drained out of him by the corporatization of the industry and the attendant de-personalization. Doing a top notch job doesn't mean as much there as it may have when he was independent.

[CBuff]

Seems to be happening across the trades. Very unfortunate, younger folks missing out on opportunities. And the consumers lacking these badly needed skilled tradesman.  
 

https://www.newsnationnow.com/cuomo-show/mike-rowe-path-to-prosperity-starts-with-a-trade/amp/

 

[Vovchandr]

Coming from the other end of things I feel there is quite a bit of "old men yelling at clouds" situation here. 

 

I know lots of mechanics who went to their specific college mill degree programs and are very successful at dealerships who have no problem finding and paying for their skilled labor. 

 

A lot of what is described in this thread is people finding it difficult to find other competent people to satisfy their niche needs of working on old stuff which often requires a lot of trouble shooting and research and even making their own parts. Of course they would struggle to find other people in that employment. I'm sure even in 1970s it was hard to find people wanting to working on Ford Model Ts. 

 

Some of the wealthiest hourly people I personally know are trades man. A friend of mine makes $125hr being a linesman and that's without overtime or being sent on emergencies where he will earn double time and 17hr days. 

 

With that said not everybody is cutout for these kind of jobs and they are hard to do with a family and a gender bias alone is real, not to mention the sacrifices one has to make to keep that kind of schedule. 

 

Troubleshooting things isn't rewarded by the capitalist market so nobody bothers to do it, so shops replace things. It only gets worse as the labor rate goes up. Makes no sense to spend two hours troubleshooting $100 alternator at $150hr, not to mention labor to put it back in. 

 

Are there useless degrees out there? Most certainly. But when almost every job requires you to have a degree on the application and AI robots will deny your resume before a person will ever see it if you don't match the credentials certainly makes one want to get a degree just to be a player in today's market, no matter what it is. 

 

As far as people branching out and staring their own things, this kind of mindset typically comes from a position of privilege where failure is an option that can be tolerated by either a safety net of already acquired funds or with help and support from family. Not to mention the capital investment to start almost anything. 

 

Are there exceptions to all these rules? Of course. But when we are talking macro scale we aren't counting ends of the bell curve. 

 

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Vovchandr

[slowdude]

40 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

Coming from the other end of things I feel there is quite a bit of "old men yelling at clouds" situation here. 

 

I know lots of mechanics who went to their specific college mill degree programs and are very successful at dealerships who have no problem finding and paying for their skilled labor. 

 

A lot of what is described in this thread is people finding it difficult to find other competent people to satisfy their niche needs of working on old stuff which often requires a lot of trouble shooting and research and even making their own parts. Of course they would struggle to find other people in that employment. I'm sure even in 1970s it was hard to find people wanting to working on Ford Model Ts. 

 

Some of the wealthiest hourly people I personally know are trades man. A friend of mine makes $125hr being a linesman and that's without overtime or being sent on emergencies where he will earn double time and 17hr days. 

 

With that said not everybody is cutout for these kind of jobs and they are hard to do with a family and a gender bias alone is real, not to mention the sacrifices one has to make to keep that kind of schedule. 

 

Troubleshooting things isn't rewarded by the capitalist market so nobody bothers to do it, so shops replace things. It only gets worse as the labor rate goes up. Makes no sense to spend two hours troubleshooting $100 alternator at $150hr, not to mention labor to put it back in. 

 

Are there useless degrees out there? Most certainly. But when almost every job requires you to have a degree on the application and AI robots will deny your resume before a person will ever see it if you don't match the credentials certainly makes one want to get a degree just to be a player in today's market, no matter what it is. 

 

As far as people branching out and staring their own things, this kind of mindset typically comes from a position of privilege where failure is an option that can be tolerated by either a safety net of already acquired funds or with help and support from family. Not to mention the capital investment to start almost anything. 

 

Are there exceptions to all these rules? Of course. But when we are talking macro scale we aren't counting ends of the bell curve. 

 

 

Agree with you on some points, especially the risk of a starting your own company and having a safety net come from a world of privilege.

 

You're spot on with some people being in corporate dealerships that aren't wired to work in those sorts of systems. I think the greater situation is that there are too many people in the world and society/powers that be are forcing people into boxes they're not made for (and never will be).

 

Why do you mention troubleshooting and repair as non-capitalistic? I see the current replace mentality due to a few things. I'd just like to understand your thought process, not poking you, it's an interesting thought.

 

I have a a few thoughts from what I've seen working in industry.

 

1. Customers do not want to spend more money than they feel they need to.

2. Vehicles (especially modern cars), are designed more to be replaced at the dealership, with large parts being reconditioned on the OEM side of things. So the new transmission I just had put in a 10 year old BMW, was actually a reconditioned transmission. Dealerships run lean because they're designed to pump throughput.

3. Dealerships, while charging a lot for the customer pay, trickle very little down to the actual service tech, which is why they go elsewhere.

4. Techs are paid hourly, but the dealer job is paid by the task. if another dealership is offering a few dollars more an hour, and the foreman at the shop is a PITA, you'll lose talent. The system isn't made for them.

 

 

[Vovchandr]

44 minutes ago, slowdude said:

Why do you mention troubleshooting and repair as non-capitalistic? I see the current replace mentality due to a few things. I'd just like to understand your thought process, not poking you, it's an interesting thought.

 

 

It's capitalistic in a niche world, not in a mass scale for mass public, hence there are few niche owners/individuals that compete and fulfill these needs for the niche customers. One can't be surprised that it's hard to find air cooled Porsche mechanics or old Ferrari specialists. These products leave mass market and the knowledge is no longer valuable for any mechanic that works by volume in a dealership on new cars.

 

Every guy with an old Ferrari or Lamborghini "has a guy" that they will go to. He might even be a few states away. If "that guy" disappears there are very few alternatives competing for that market in this capitalistic world.

 

For an average person "not spending money" desire almost always means it's cheaper to replace the part, especially when "troubleshooting" can't be promised to find a resolution and you're still stuck with old part. It's usually a choice made by people who don't have any other option such as the forementioned niche vehicles where replacement might not be an option and people have the funds to afford to pay labor rate on their toys, not to mention time without the vehicle as it's not a primary transport but a toy. 

 

If all of a sudden there is increase of demand for niche services for whatever the reason, one can't be surprised that inelastic labor market on the niche knowledge base can't all of a sudden keep up. A regular very knowledgable Honda mechanic can't all of a sudden be a replacement expert in an old Italian specialty shop for example, nor will many be willing to make the switch even if the money was there.  

 

I see you're drawing a distinction between techs and mechanics unless you're using those terms interchangeably. In either case mechanics are flat rate at dealerships and aren't hourly. The more skilled they are, the more money they can make. Not unusual for a busy dealership a good mechanic earning 80 to 100 hours worth of work in an 40 hour week of physically being there. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Vovchandr

[CarlB]

I want to complain about modern car servicing, but I will start by saying that our education system ignores anything except collage preparation, and it does a poor job of that. The English apprentice programs produced some very skilled people, but they shoehorned people as well. Now on to 4Cs. They aren't the only ones, but they were supposed to be selling a sports car. I wanted to turn off the nannies and couldn't figure out how to do it. I have a number of friends that work at Chrysler. I know a lot of the people involved with Viper. They couldn't help me. I don't need the car braking on its own in the middle of a corner.   

[Bruce K]

8 hours ago, wdb said:

My most recent experiences slot in pretty well with the general consensus here. I had my Porsche 996 engine rebuilt by Flat Six Innovations in Georgia. The main man there, Jake Raby, is extremely fussy and will only work with a handful of shops nationwide to remove/install/break in their engines. I am fortunate to have one of them in my general area. But the stories coming out of FSI are a bit dire. Finding qualified mechanical skills is all but impossible. In addition the parts situation is not good; quality has gone down even on the Porsche labeled stuff, and availability continues to diminish as well. They have taken to making their own parts (in conjunction with LN Engineering) because of those issues.

 

Rebuilding Porsche transaxles is difficult due to parts availability and the need for specialized tools. Only a few shops in the country can be counted on for quality work. At least those exist!

 

I have been harping about the increasing gap between skilled labor and college educated labor for many many many years. @Bruce K has already done the topic good justice so I won't go on about it myself other than to say, "hear hear."  There needs to be far more respect given to skilled craftspeople of all sorts. And the $ need to be there to attract people towards those paths and away from what has largely become the diploma mill college system. 

 

In terms of the increased costs for skilled labor, I am ALL FOR IT. Charge me more! Allow those skilled artists to make a good living! But ensure that I am getting good, quality workmanship in return. I will gladly spend my money on people who are proud of their work and stand behind it.

Excellent, @wdb - I concur on all points.  The money is perhaps the crucial draw. but we need to undermine the prestige of a 4 year degree in nonsense disciplines.  Young women need to appreciate the lifelong value of a young man's certification in electrical or plumbing, as much as or more than a degree in transgender mating practices or entomology with specialization in wingless butterflies.  Young women need to consider young tradesmen equal, and in many cases superior, to college graduates as mates.  The national associations for all these skilled trades should mount mass advertising campaigns, broadcasting the substantial wages and job security attached to their endeavors.  These associations should send emissaries to college fairs to lure students AWAY from the campus and into skilled trade training programs, using immediate high wages and future job stability as bait.  If the universities had some sense, they would establish training programs in cooperation with these associations, guaranteeing the immediate ability of their students to house and feed themselves upon graduation.  We already have too many lawyers, too many chiropractors, and a surfeit of accountants - why should all these talented people, with the discipline to endure 4 years of hard training, perform their skilled work for less because of supply and demand?  Let them eat cake, by earning big money to pick up wrenches or welding torches.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Bruce K

[Vovchandr]

3 hours ago, Bruce K said:

Young women need to appreciate the lifelong value of a master's certificate in electrical or plumbing

 

Why would young women ever they want to join an industry that is toxic to them? A number of lucrative trade industries do value physical strength and will always look down on women joining as equals. Even if they do get in as equals the other men in the industry will make it a toxic environment with sexual harassments and have that considered the norm that you can't complain about. Look at the army for example. Tradesmen are the worst advocates for themselves in this regard. Due to this you can rule out roughly 50% of available employment population from the start. 

 

If you ignore the reasons above other in need trade industries that are in high demand and pay decent such as oil fields, oil rigging, long distance trucking, almost all of them do very little to cater or help with a women wanting to start a family unlike a white collar world. Old tradition of woman being a primary baby care giver is still alive due to basic biology and old traditions but the new world of a two member working household makes it very difficult. I doubt many roofers will be entertained with a woman taking breaks to breast pump and requiring private accommodations to store her milk. 

 

Regardless of those factors many trades are great money at a young age but some, in particular flat rate mechanics have little room for long term career advancements and are certainly hard on bodies long term. My good earning friends in the industry loved the money and hustle in their 20's and 30's but didn't want to be the 55 year old in the shop doing the same thing. 

 

This isn't a complicated matter, trades are often dirty, require travel, could be often associated with a health risk and are hard to sustain long term. Compared to office work they have to put up a LOT to lure people into them. Currently needs of employment and often union benefits such as retirement are two big things luring people, cost of college as an alternative is also enticing. 

 

Every time I help out my friends at his shop and spend just a few hours working on things I'm reminded of my construction days and vs what I do now. As my friends at the shop call it "pushing buttons" for a career. They deserve all the money they get. Come come with dirty clothes, dirty hands, tired, beat up, dealing with customers every single day. I would consider a career change but at the rate they could never afford that I would need to justify the switch and I wouldn't do it for what they offer. I come home clean, easy work days, amazing benefits, low stress work that's mostly computer based and some hands on. I just even passed on an opportunity to move to a different job within the industry for more money just because the life/work balance would suffer. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Vovchandr

[MV8]

Many assumptions about the military, mechanics, blue collar work, and women. Equality means just that/no pedestal. They are all more capable than you seem to realize, but I understand the stereotypes being applied from the other side of the fence. It's human nature.

[Vovchandr]

20 minutes ago, MV8 said:

Many assumptions about the military, mechanics, blue collar work, and women. Equality means just that/no pedestal. They are all more capable than you seem to realize, but I understand the stereotypes being applied from the other side of the fence. It's human nature.

 

Talking generics is always assumptions based on whatever anecdotal data or research one can find. 

 

I speak from personal experience and the data that I've seen as well as pure facts of typical trade being a more dirty work than typical white collar. 

 

Everybody's favorite proponent of trades explores them on a show called "dirty jobs"  and explores just how dirty many trades or hands on jobs can get.

 

Some of these discussion topics just write themselves. 

Edited September 18, 2023 by Vovchandr

[Bruce K]

1 hour ago, Vovchandr said:

 

Why would young women ever they want to join an industry that is toxic to them? A number of lucrative trade industries do value physical strength and will always look down on women joining as equals. Even if they do get in as equals the other men in the industry will make it a toxic environment with sexual harassments and have that considered the norm that you can't complain about. Look at the army for example. Tradesmen are the worst advocates for themselves in this regard. Due to this you can rule out roughly 50% of available employment population from the start. 

 

If you ignore the reasons above other in need trade industries that are in high demand and pay decent such as oil fields, oil rigging, long distance trucking, almost all of them do very little to cater or help with a women wanting to start a family unlike a blue collar world. Old tradition of woman being a primary baby care giver is still alive due to basic biology and old traditions but the new world of a two member working household makes it very difficult. I doubt many roofers will be entertained with a woman taking breaks to breast pump and requiring private accommodations to store her milk. 

 

Regardless of those factors many trades are great money at a young age but some, in particular flat rate mechanics have little room for long term career advancements and are certainly hard on bodies long term. My good earning friends in the industry loved the money and hustle in their 20's and 30's but didn't want to be the 55 year old in the shop doing the same thing. 

 

This isn't a complicated matter, trades are often dirty, require travel, could be often associated with a health risk and are hard to sustain long term. Compared to office work they have to put up a LOT to lure people into them. Currently needs of employment and often union benefits such as retirement are two big things luring people, cost of college as an alternative is also enticing. 

 

Every time I help out my friends at his shop and spend just a few hours working on things I'm reminded of my construction days and vs what I do now. As my friends at the shop call it "pushing buttons" for a career. They deserve all the money they get. Come come with dirty clothes, dirty hands, tired, beat up, dealing with customers every single day. I would consider a career change but at the rate they could never afford that I would need to justify the switch and I wouldn't do it for what they offer. I come home clean, easy work days, amazing benefits, low stress work that's mostly computer based and some hands on. I just even passed on an opportunity to move to a different job within the industry for more money just because the life/work balance would suffer. 

@Vovchandr- I omitted two important words, which changed the meaning of the sentence.  I have added some verbiage to my post, and the sentence now reads: "Young women need to appreciate the lifelong value of a young man's certification in electrical or plumbing . . . "  I was trying to say that young women need to consider young tradesmen equal, and in many cases superior, to college graduates as mates.   I have edited my post and apologize for the error.  However, I believe your position regarding skilled tradeswomen is mysogynistic and wrong-headed.  I have personally met female appliance repair, plumbing, welding and electrical tradespeople.  This is a free country, so why can't females choose the trade of their preference?  I agree that many trades favor the additional muscle and frame of males, and that most females will prefer other employment.  But, as a society, we should attempt to attract as many females to trades as possible, because of the great, unfilled and expanding need.  As far as similar wrong-headed thinking from other males, we need to convince them regarding the virtues of female freedom, arguments in which we have prevailed regarding other issues such as female suffrage, professional females including lawyers, doctors and accountants, females in the military and so on.  Regarding female soldiers, most females will not have the ultimate lifting and carrying capacity, and perhaps the ultimate reflexes, but if you have ever met a female DI or an experienced female cop (a paramilitary), you would not fear her presence in your foxhole or cop car.  Remember that there are many subsets of labor within each trade, including military, and females with the appropriate motivation can find their posting.  Look at the UFC, for God's sake.  At this stage of my life, I am sorry to report that I would not want to fight Amanda Nunes, and even if I survived the experience, I bet I I would bear multiple scars and injuries.

 

Regarding aging tradespeople, I know several mechanics 60 year old and older.  Their roles have changed, and they do not pull out as many heavy motors and trannies as before, or work as much overtime, but their skill and experience makes them invaluable to their cohorts, and the older mechanics I know are at the top of their pay scales.  Like many other professions outside of skilled trades, if you have long-term debilities like arthritis or organ disease, you may not be able to produce.  But health is not an issue confined to hands-on workers.

 

As you noted in your conclusion, your choices are your own, and it should be that way for every American in the Land of the Free.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Bruce K

[Vovchandr]

2 minutes ago, Bruce K said:

@Vovchandr- I omitted two important words, which changed the meaning of the sentence.  I have added some verbiageto my post, and the sentence now reads: "Young women need to appreciate the lifelong value of a young man's certification in electrical or plumbing . . . "  I was trying to say that young women need to consider young tradesmen equal, and in many cases superior, to college graduates as mates.   I have edited my post and apologize for the error.  However, I believe your position regarding skilled tradeswomen is mysogynistic and wrong-headed.  I have personally met female appliance repair, plumbing, welding and electrical tradespeople.  This is a free country, so why can't females choose the trade of their preference?  I agree that many trades favor the additional muscle and frame of males, and that most females will prefer other employment.  But, as a society, we should attempt to attract as many females to trades as possible, because of the great, unfilled and expanding need.  As far as similar wrong-headed thinking from other males, we need to convince them regarding the virtues of female freedom, arguments in which we have prevailed regarding other issues such as female suffrage, professional females including lawyers, doctors and accountants, females in the military and so on.  Regarding female soldiers, most females will not have the ultimate lifting and carrying capacity, and perhaps the ultimate reflexes, but if you have ever met a female DI or an experienced female cop (a paramilitary), you would not fear her presence in your foxhole or cop car.  Remember that there are many subsets of labor within each trade, including military, and females with the appropriate motivation can find their posting.  Look at the UFC, for God's sake.  At this stage of my life, I am sorry to report that I would not want to fight Amanda Nunes, and even if I survived the experience, I bet I I would bear multiple scars and injuries.

 

Regarding aging tradespeople, I know several mechanics 60 year old and older.  Their roles have changed, and they do not pull out as many heavy motors and trannies as before, or work as much overtime, but their skill and experience makes them invaluable to their cohorts, and the older mechanics I know are at the top of their pay scales.  Like many other professions outside of skilled trades, if you have long-term debilities like arthritis or organ disease, you may not be able to produce.  But health is not an issue confined to hands-on workers.

 

As you noted in your conclusion, your choices are your own, and it should be that way for every American in the Land of the Free.

 

I'm not discouraging women from joining, the more the better. I'm explaining reasons why they don't or won't. Some will. Most won't especially once babies get involved even if you disregard all other issues. 

 

Again like I said, examples exist but they are outliers and not majority. If you want large numbers to join trades, talking outliers doesn't help. 

 

Old guys working mechanics becomes less and less useful as the age goes on and they can't keep up with the endless pursuit of making a car into a calculator. Same generation that can't figure out apps on their phones is now required to do everything in software that constantly changes in the car world and requires constant troubleshooting. You're turning mechanics into IT as software problems are more and more common. 

 

I never said health issues are confused to trades but you'll be hard pressed to find an office worker who fell off a roof or has knee issues due to decades of lifting. 

[Bruce K]

1 minute ago, Vovchandr said:

 

Talking generics is always assumptions based on whatever anecdotal data or research one can find. 

 

I speak from personal experience and the data that I've seen as well as pure facts of typical trade being a more dirty work than typical blue collar. 

 

Everybody's favorite proponent of trades explores them on a show called "dirty jobs"  and explores just how dirty many trades or hands on jobs can get.

 

Some of these discussion topics just write themselves. 

@Vovchandr- I have read about slave owners who believed in "generics", and postulated that blacks have brains incompatible with sophisticated thinking based on phrenology, or the structure of their skulls.  Were they correct, because their thinking was "common" in their milieu?  Or were they simply pasting a veneer of pseudo-science over their prejudice?  And the reason anecdotal experience cannot be extended to prove broad contentions is that our "personal experiences" are too slim and focused.  Anecdotal evidence should only be used to reinforce positions provable with broad-based data.  Lastly, women can also choose to NOT become honeydippers, prison guards, cops or soldiers.  As a point of fact, most will not choose these professions.  But the choice must remain theirs, or we relegate all women to a modern plantation.

[Bruce K]

32 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

 

I'm not discouraging women from joining, the more the better. I'm explaining reasons why they don't or won't. Some will. Most won't especially once babies get involved even if you disregard all other issues. 

 

Again like I said, examples exist but they are outliers and not majority. If you want large numbers to join trades, talking outliers doesn't help. 

 

Old guys working mechanics becomes less and less useful as the age goes on and they can't keep up with the endless pursuit of making a car into a calculator. Same generation that can't figure out apps on their phones is now required to do everything in software that constantly changes in the car world and requires constant troubleshooting. You're turning mechanics into IT as software problems are more and more common. 

 

I never said health issues are confused to trades but you'll be hard pressed to find an office worker who fell off a roof or has knee issues due to decades of lifting. 

People who endure in any trade have acquired the discipline of life-long improvement.  My 60 year old mechanic friends may not know how to post in Facebook for the greatest number of hits, but they can take cellphone images of broken parts and transmit them around the world in seconds.  They can perform an internet search to determine the correct wiring of a body control module in low-production cars in minutes.  They are slower than fast-metabolism 20-somethings, but are the highest paid because their work turns out right more often.

 

Because the pace of change is slower in many skilled trades than, for example, in the design of electronic systems, the skilled trade females I know have been better able to rejoin their trades after giving birth.  Giving birth is a unique and essential female ability, which we should encourage in every way.  The fact that females can re-enter many skilled trades easier than certain other occupations should be promoted as a real advantage.

 

Vovchandr, I think you confuse prejudices with generalizations, when you should seek to rid yourself of both.

Edited September 18, 2023 by Bruce K

[slowdude]

I see 8-10% of every step class as women. On the motorcycle side, it's significantly less. Can't say if this area is a higher or lower percentage than the national average though.

[Bruce K]

Imagine, during this time of labor scarcity, where we would be without that 8 to 10%?  And we should market this professions to increase that number significantly.

[Vovchandr]

1 hour ago, Bruce K said:

People who endure in any trade have acquired the discipline of life-long improvement.  My 60 year old mechanic friends may not know how to post in Facebook for the greatest number of hits, but they can take cellphone images of broken parts and transmit them around the world in seconds.  They can perform an internet search to determine the correct wiring of a body control module in low-production cars in minutes.  They are slower than fast-metabolism 20-somethings, but are the highest paid because their work turns out right more often.

 

Because the pace of change is slower in many skilled trades than, for example, in the design of electronic systems, the skilled trade females I know have been better able to rejoin their trades after giving birth.  Giving birth is a unique and essential female ability, which we should encourage in every way.  The fact that females can re-enter many skilled trades easier than certain other occupations should be promoted as a real advantage.

 

Vovchandr, I think you confuse prejudices with generalizations, when you should seek to rid yourself of both.

 

I think you confuse anecdotes with what reality in mass is. 

 

According to you there is some invisible hand that's stopping all these capable young millennials and competent women from being a force willing to work trades no matter how much money is thrown at them. 

 

Not the fact that they simply aren't an attractive avenue for young people and in particular young women who prefer to have a great all around job without many sacrifices that many trades simply cannot offer. 

 

Tell me how soon these women you know rejoined the workforce? Did they breast feed? Did they take 3 months off to recover from birthing and getting to spend some crucial time with their new born or did they send them to day care? Did they have any postpartum symptoms? Did they not want to stay home with their baby if they could instead of working? Did they take as much overtime as before birthing?

 

Very curious. 

[Bruce K]

29 minutes ago, Vovchandr said:

 

I think you confuse anecdotes with what reality in mass is. 

 

According to you there is some invisible hand that's stopping all these capable young millennials and competent women from being a force willing to work trades no matter how much money is thrown at them. 

 

Not the fact that they simply aren't an attractive avenue for young people and in particular young women who prefer to have a great all around job without many sacrifices that many trades simply cannot offer. 

 

Tell me how soon these women you know rejoined the workforce? Did they breast feed? Did they take 3 months off to recover from birthing and getting to spend some crucial time with their new born or did they send them to day care? Did they have any postpartum symptoms? Did they not want to stay home with their baby if they could instead of working? Did they take as much overtime as before birthing?

 

Very curious. 

Last thought first:  Women recovering from childbirth, and getting their newborn set up with proper care, face largely the same challenges across all fields of service.  Childbirth poses the same challenges whether plumber, lawyer, electrician, accountant or cop - no significant differences.

 

Next thought - you perhaps missed @slowdude's observation about 9 to 10% of his trade classes being currently female.  My point is:  Let's advertise and celebrate the advantages which 10% currently recognize, and attract 20 or 25%.  Of course, we should be advertising just as adamantly to the men, but women should not be overlooked, for the benefits to both them and to society.

 

Final thought - you should look up the meaning of "generalization".  I can see you are trying to suppress yours in these latter posts, but they still sneak into your conclusions.  Abandon them, because generalizations (particularly "presumed deficits") prevent us from examining new and improved solutions for problems.  Reread my slave owner example.  For how many years were there no black NFL quarterbacks or coaches?  Isn't the league better now because of Patrick Mahomes and Tony Dungee?  In this case, there was no open discrimination - only a generalized, and erroneous, conclusion regarding inferiority.

 

[Vovchandr]

18 minutes ago, Bruce K said:

Last thought first:  Women recovering from childbirth, and getting their newborn set up with proper care, face largely the same challenges across all fields of service.  Childbirth poses the same challenges whether plumber, lawyer, electrician, accountant or cop - no significant differences.

 

Plumbers are often on call for late emergencies. Cops work 24/7 shifts. Regular electrician might be fine but if a woman is a lineman she's gotta cover inclement weather emergencies which are often non stop work for days at a time away from home. If you consider military a trade there is a thing called deployment. Oil fields is 6 months on and 6 months off. There are lots of differences that some trades have that white collar often doesn't. With that said there are plenty of travel white collar which also can't be performed well by anybody with a new born and they are never an emergency leave, at least they can be planned for. 

 

Your plan to get 10% to 25% is just to advertise? Even more ads to get to 50%? Wouldn't advertising also attract more men as well further hurting reaching the women percent target?

 

If youre worried about generalizations you should go through the early posts in this thread as generalizations is what brought on this discussions and corrections to how nobody seems to work in trades anymore. 

 

Keep in mind that unemployment level is very low so almost everybody they can't work is doing something, and they would have to do a career switch if they wanted to start in a trade. Even once in a trade, most females undertake cosmetology as a trade career and overall the percent of women on trades is represented by a single digit, somewhere between 3 to 7% percent depending on the study outside of slowdudes personal experiences. 

 

Im not even touching your slave owner tangent. 

[Vovchandr]

Re - electricians. 

 

Let's look at an actual study in the field and see what actual people in industry say.

 

https://electricianpal.com/how-many-electricians-are-female/

 

Trade	Percentage of women in the trade
Painters	8.9
Glaziers	7.6
Welders	3.5
carpenters	3.1
Bricklayers	2.2
plumbers	2.1
electricians	1.8

 

 

Reasons why

 

Extrapolated Categories Number of Comments in the Category

 

Verbal and physical harassment 12

Perceived differences in general interests 6

Dirty and filthy work environment 6

No dedicated female bathrooms 5

Danger hazards 3

 

 

And here is general discussion from women

 

https://reddit.com/r/feminisms/s/YDcJqwZdJM

 

As you can see the "generalizations" I've mentioned come up again and again from women or people in the field.