Oil Change for 2014 360 wet sump

[dstb]

I am a recent buyer of a 2014 360 and looking for advice on an oil change.  The sales sheet I received stated this was a dry sump system but there is no external tank.  Only a catch can.  I believe it is actually wet sump.  Please see the attached photos.  I am looking for the correct oil drain plug.  I think this is the bolt shown in the right side photo.  But the left side photo shows another type of bolt.  I'll take any advice.  Thanks.  

[11Budlite]

I'm not familiar with the Caterham Duratec sump setup but the black plug should be the drain, and the blue anodized plug I think would be where the finger filter is located. I assumed the finger filter was only on dry sump cars, but I guess I was wrong.

[JohnCh]

I have this sump on the Westfield.  I have always used the blue plug as that is what Raceline told me to use when I bought it years ago, but I've seen comments that Caterham recommends the smaller plug on the other side.  I've never bothered to measure which port is lower, but it might be worth checking on your car.

 

Is this the car that was on Bring a Trailer a couple of times this Fall?  If so, I called him out on his dry sump claim in the initial listing, which he ignored.

[dstb]

Thanks to you guys for chiming in.  I'd say both plugs are at about an equal height.  I guess I might just have to open both and see what is what.  I feel like the blue plug may be there to facilitate a dry sump setup IF it was installed.

 

This is the BAT car.  The sales sheet from Hillbank detailing all the options shows dry sump at a $3,500 tab.  I'm sure that's where that came from on the BAT listing.  It also has the catch tank but no separate oil tank/cooler as far as I can see.  Pretty confusing to me but I'm new to all this.

[JohnCh]

One thing I discovered after removing the sump to reseal a leak is that a fair amount of oil is left over when draining via the ports.  I switched to an oil extraction pump which does a better job of removing all the oil.

 

You definitely have a wet sump.  The dry sump pan is quite different, and as you note, it would need a separate tank.  The initial listing for your car also mentioned it had a catalytic converter, but the pictures show it is fitted with the cat-bypass pipe.  I suspect the previous owner didn't really know very much about these cars. 

 

There are a lot of very knowledgeable people on the forum; don't hesitate to ask questions as you begin to learn your car.  In return, you do need to post photos of the car with the under-body LEDs illuminated.  I have never heard of those before on any type of se7en  

[dstb]

You are correct on all counts.  Thankfully I have no emission test here and I believe the seller to be a good guy and casual owner.  But it is hilarious you mentioned the underbody lights.  I removed them with extreme prejudice and they will never shine again.  I’m an old school kind of guy.  This car is for driving. 

[dstb]

The oil change went off fine.  Used the black plug.  Put in 5W-50 per the manual.  My paper manual says the 360 wet sump would take 4.5 liters and the one I found on-line said 5.5.  It actually took 6.5, closer to what a dry sump would take.  As of the first drive the engine temp is running slightly warmer and the idle oil pressure slightly higher which I was hoping for.  Engine temp still drops the harder I drive the car however.  What an amazing car in the corners.  

[IamScotticus]

Looks like a sump pan that can be used for a dry sump.  You obviously have a wet sump pickup tube in there. 

Anyway,  if you have a finger filter, take it out and inspect it. It is a maintenance item too.  It could be keeping gunk from leaving the sump when you drain. It's porpoise 🐬 is to protect the scavenge pump, if you had one.

You may also have an O ring behind that blue head needing replacement.  Consider a using a Dowdy seal that fits.

Pegasus is good for those.

 

Nope, definitely not a DS

Nothing wrong with wet sump, a lot of potential problems will never occur.  Very solid and reliable. 

 

Edited December 26, 2024 by IamScotticus

[MV8]

I hope he didn't put 5w50 in a duratec.

[dstb]

Thanks.  Yes I figured this setup might allow a dry sump but is not currently one.  

 

On the oil I did indeed as recommended. Check the manual.  

 

 

[JohnCh]

5 hours ago, IamScotticus said:

Looks like a sump pan that can be used for a dry sump. 

 

Is there such a thing?  The Raceline/Caterham wet sump certainly isn't set up that way.  A key factor in a dry sump is that no oil is stored below the crank, hence the word "dry".  A Wet sump is much deeper and stores the oil reserve, hence "wet."  That sump also has no provisions for the hoses to and from the external tank.  

 

The finger filer on both the Raceline wet and dry sump is positioned directly below the oil pump and screens larger particles from entering and destroying it.  The Raceline/Caterham dry sump uses only this one pump.

 

6.5 liters sounds like a lot of oil for that sump.  Raceline recommends 5 Liters upon first fill and 4.5 - 4.75 liters on oil changes.  They also recommend marking the dipstick upon first fill of 5 liters to calibrate it.  I'm assuming (I know, I know) that Caterham provides a calibrated dipstick on a new car, but there is the possibility that your dipstick was replaced at some point with the Ford item, or perhaps it's not seating properly in the tube.  

 

 

[dstb]

I think it's seating okay but who really knows. I went in very slow with the new oil adding and measuring.  It took what it took.  I was pleased to see that it measured the same after a spirited drive.  On the old oil it burned some.  One thing I'm finding out very quickly is there a a million combos and quirks with these cars.  Makes it interesting I guess.  

[MV8]

10 hours ago, dstb said:

Thanks.  Yes I figured this setup might allow a dry sump but is not currently one.  

 

On the oil I did indeed as recommended. Check the manual.  

 

 

In a nut shell, run the oil viscosity the engine was designed to run. If pressure is dropping, change it more often, with better oil, or run a water/oil cooler sandwich.

 

Here is a clipped image from the assembly manual. Yes they suggest that you buy their product (necessary for the rover engine) for use in other engines. No, there would not necessarily be any immediate problem obvious to a driver. Engines are designed for a specific viscosity at (oil not coolant temp which is lower) operating temp 100c/212f. At this oil temp, the correct oil viscosity results in the least amount of wear. There is a pressure bypass valve that allows the oil to bypass the oil filter when the oil is too thick due to oil temp, oil viscosity, and pump rpm. This is why an engine should be warmed up before being heavily loaded. 

 

The rover is designed to run 5w50. The duratec is not, so it will bypass more oil around the filter under all conditions. The bypass is a safety to prevent damage. A racing engine typically has the bypass blocked off and is gently warmed to operating temp by running without load or pumping warm fluid through it.

 

Adding a dry sump or oil cooler typically lowers oil temp so the oil viscosity should be considered.

 

Without an oil temp gauge, a good indication the oil is getting too hot is some pressure fall off as the oil change interval approaches, so a better oil or a cooler should be considered, not necessarily thicker oil.

 

A worn engine that does not have adequate oil pressure can continue to be operated by using a thicker oil but it is still a compromise.

 

Black oil is not "burned". Exposure to air over time will darken the oil. Dark does not mean the oil must be changed.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2024 by MV8
numerous spelling errors!!!

[IamScotticus]

Can this tap be used for DS extraction?

 

[wdb]

I don't know where that plug is, but it would have to be at the bottom of the sump in order to work.

 

A wet sump with a tap at the bottom of the sump, connected to the scavenge inlet of a two-stage (or more) oil pump, would theoretically work in a dry sump system.  But in the case of our cars a major advantage would be lost -- ground clearance. The other dry sump advantage, elimination of windage losses, should be possible. Plus an external tank allows for additional oil volume.

[JohnCh]

3 hours ago, IamScotticus said:

Can this tap be used for DS extraction?

 

 

It is tapped.  That is the access to the finger filter below the pump and can also be used to drain the sump.  However, the port in that location on the dry sump pan is the input from the oil cooler and the extraction back to the tank is the port behind it.  To use that pan you would still need to add an extra port and as @wdb indicates, you would need to reconfigure the pump to make it all work.  Here are photos of the inside of both sumps that have been oriented the same way with the oil pump pickup in the upper right-hand corner (I don't have a good photo of my wet sump and am using a low-res version from Raceline's website.)  As you can see from the configuration, there is a lot more to a dry sump pan.  Bottom line, that wet sump was not intended to be used for either configuration. 

 

 

[dstb]

Regarding the referenced plug it IS at the bottom of the sump left side.  No external oil tank however.  I'm happy it is a wet sump.  I don't need or want the extra complication.  But it did take a LOT of oil.  

 

On the MV8 oil type post, your own chart shows 5W-50 as one of the Duratec oils.  Photo of my manual page below and another manual I found online show the same.  To say the Duratec is not designed to run that viscosity is your statement but makes no sense to me.  5W-30 is for the Sigma.  As long as the car continues to perform well with this oil I will continue to use it.    

Manual 2.pdf

[Croc]

17 hours ago, MV8 said:

I hope he didn't put 5w50 in a duratec.

 

Cosworth recommend that weight for my Duratec.

[KnifeySpoony]

I've even heard of some people running 10w60 in Duratecs. 

[MV8]

Dstb, I did not intend to confuse you. Use whatever oil you want. 

 

Croc, was there a reason/issue for making the recommendation to correct something? it would be interesting to hear how a person at Cosworth (or anywhere) can support that over using the correct viscosity.