ultralite S2K, other wisdom for lurker

[kennyrayandersen]

New ‘Official’ lurker here. I’ve been wanting a 7 off and on for a while. I’m and engineer, pretty handy and have rebuilt a few engines and worked on cars quite a bit and done some light fabrication and machining. I’ve thought about building one from scratch, but I’ve come to realize that I do nothing but work 60 hours a week and so am short on time (doesn’t seem to keep me from engaging in a lot of hobbies – silversmithing, stained glass, lapidary, and wood working – I guess I like working with my hands!). So, I was thinking I would probably be better off looking at a ‘kit’ where most of it had been sorted out.

 

I like the looks of the Westfield, but since I’m State-side I don’t want to mess with a non-imported powerplant. The new Miata version would be OK, but kind of down on power, and to get a lot of power it seems to come at the expense of bucks and an engine that’s rather high strung (I could be wrong on that).

 

There are a couple in Australia that I find appealing as well as a couple in the UK, but again I don’t really want to go too much into the import thing because it just subtracts from money that could go into the car ;so, I think I’ve narrowed it down to the WCM SK2. Money-wise, if you do it yourself, it doesn’t seem THAT much more than a Westfield Miata, and you get 240 HP bone stock with Honda reliability, which both seem pretty desirable. Plus, as a side note, I live in Texas and Brian is just down the road… yee haw!

 

So I see a fair number of Ultralite S2Ks floating around the forum. I’ve think I would prefer building one, just because that’s where I get my thrill – it’s not really a money issue – I just enjoy building stuff. Talking to Brian, I think most of them are sold turn-key, but they will on occasion sell to someone that will not go stupid on them. So, if there is anyone out there that has one, or especially if you have built one, I would appreciate some feedback on how the build went, what kind of documentation (manual?) comes with the car, and any special problems that you encountered.

 

Also, it would be interesting to hear any “if I did it again, I’d do this differently” comments [from anyone, not just S2K builders].

Edited September 4, 2009 by kennyrayandersen
Update title to reflect broader questions

[Kitcat]

I think an Ultralite is a lot of vehicle for the $. I think the Miata powered Westfield is also. And you can get a turbo-powered one from Flyin Miata that will have a bullet proof engine and more power than you could ever really use.

 

Texas is home to Dick Brink's Texas Motorworks (go to Google). He sells a new IRS Birkin se7en that wld be near the top of my list at the moment. The "Fastest Caterham" in the states is also for sale for around $50K-pretty tempting IMHO.

 

So many choices. That's part of the fun.

 

Mike

[JohnCh]

First off, welcome! You can't go wrong with a se7en, so my advice is to get the one that appeals to you the most and fits your budget.

 

I like the looks of the Westfield, but since I’m State-side I don’t want to mess with a non-imported powerplant. The new Miata version would be OK, but kind of down on power, and to get a lot of power it seems to come at the expense of bucks and an engine that’s rather high strung (I could be wrong on that).

 

The standard Westfield engine is the Ford Duratec, which is used stateside in the Ford Focus, so no issues there. I have a 2.0L 210hp spec version in mine, which is far from high strung (no problem starting out in 3rd gear which is good for 102mph). You can also go with the 2.3L if you want a torque monster. The Duratec is also used by Caterham and Birkin, so it is pretty popular in Se7en circles with lots of power options available.

 

As Mike mentioned, Flyin Miata offers a highly regarded turbo kit for the Miata engine. Skip has that combo installed in his Caterham and seems extremely happy with it.

 

-John

[scannon]

Welcome aboard Kenny. The best thing for you to do is to find and drive several different types of Se7en to make sure the car itself is the one you want. They can be quite different from brand to brand, then determine what engine you want.

The new Miata version would be OK, but kind of down on power, and to get a lot of power it seems to come at the expense of bucks and an engine that’s rather high strung (I could be wrong on that).

 

I drove FM's Westfield when it had a bone stock 1.6 Miata engine with only a Link ECU, no turbo. The car's acceleration amazed me even though I had just been giving demo rides to people in my Caterham. Had the Westfield Miata version been available when I bought my Caterham I probably would now own a Westfield (with a turbo Miata motor).

 

The engine in my Caterham is an internally bone stock 1.8 liter Miata engine with the addition of a turbo, manifold, intercooler, larger injectors and a Hydra ECU. It makes 301 RWHP and is as easy and pleasant to drive as any Miata. Right up until you floor the GO pedal. Then your right hand better be on the shifter and one eye on the tach as you have less than 2 seconds in 1st gear.

 

Miata engines were engineered for turbos from the get go and very reliable. They only get high strung when you try to get big HP without a turbo. Those engines cost far more than adding a turbo to a stock engine.

 

The big difference between a turbo Miata engine and a stock Honda S2000 engine is the bottom end torque. There is no comparison. Drive an FM turbo'd Miata and then the S2000 and you will see what I'm getting at.

 

If you get to the Denver area, stop by for a test ride.

[powderbrake]

I did a kit version of the WCM S2k, and am very happy with it. The Honda engine and transmission are as reliable as you can get,and the 240 hp from a bone stock engine means no wrenching on it.

 

Send me a PM with your email and I'll answer questions on my build.

[manik]

I'll put on my dealer hat and note that there are a few Westfields fitted with the Honda S2000 engine and gearbox. It's just not a factory-supplied option, so you don't hear much about it. In fact, as of September 2009, there may be a preowned S2000-powered Westfield for sale here in the U.S.

 

 

tom

[JohnCh]

The Honda engine and transmission are as reliable as you can get,and the 240 hp from a bone stock engine means no wrenching on it.

 

And where is the adventure in that? :jester:

 

-John

[Mondo]

I'm kind of embarrassed that a bigger than I like to admit issue was that I liked the look of the WCM better than the others (side shots are the most dramatic). I'm sure there are probably more traditionalist out there that have just the opposite feeling.

 

Then when I found out about the honda drivetrain and all stateside parts availability (the only sole source WCM stuff is the chassis & bonnet I think) it was an easy decision for me. Also, it's very competitive in autoX so I Knew it handled well. Furthermore, it's probably got one of the widest drivers compartments (the passenger side is more standard/small;))

 

Besides Brian, you have WestTexas & 7evin relatively nearby that have the most experience in beating these cars up.

 

They can also help you on build issues which I can't.... I just like to drive it!

 

Good luck on whichever 7 you end up with, it's hard to go wrong.

[WestTexasS2K]

I have built 1 S2k particiapted in building a 2nd S2k and have a 3rd under construction. So I guess you can tell I am partial to the S2k as well. The car wasnt hard to put together and it sounds like you wont have alot of issues fabricating bits to make the car your own. I like the fact most of the parts are available at the local Oriellys or is a Jegs call away. It has very good performance and reliablity. I really like the Honda engine and tranny. They are a little shy on torque but I can start off in fourth gear with no trouble at all. They are very spry below 5k and you better be heading the direction you want to go by 6k because things happen very quickly. I personally perfer the short fat look of the S2k over the longer look of the Caterham or a Birkin. The S2K is wider than most sevens that I have seen so I fits american size butts a little better than some. I will admit that the craftsmanship on the Westfield, Birkins and Caterhams are very nice and the fit and finish is good.

There have been many owner built Ultralites that come out very nice and some that leave a little to be desired as with any kit build. So for me it comes down to bang for the buck and the look you desire.

P.S. If you find the 240hp a little boring Kevin and I have a solution for that problem too.

[kennyrayandersen]

Thanks y’all for the inputs and PMs

 

Actually I really like the looks of the Birkins and Caterhams – maybe even a bit better than the S2K, so you won’t hear me dissing any of them. I have more of a Danish butt than an American one lol, so the wide cockpit isn’t that big of a concern and I actually prefer the narrow bodies as far as looks goes. Still, most of them are pretty good looking (except that homebrew someone posted on E-bay the other day, now that was ugly!). I mainly just want to keep it simple, so I want to stay away from any kind of custom engine installation, or major deviation for ‘standard’. I figure the less complicated it is the higher the chance for success.

 

The points about the Miata are well taken; though I have to wonder by the time I got the ‘Pallet’ Miata, and the turbo et al, whether it wouldn’t be a fair bit more than the S2000 engine/tranny. Anyway, it’s not such an easy decision because there are some GREAT-looking Se7ens out there, and I’d be happy to own quite a few of them. I just think it’s is simpler when the hardware doesn’t have to be imported (enough tales of woe on that one…). I’m still several months away as I’m in Korea living and working at least until the middle of January, so I have some time to peruse and make the final decision.

[RGTorque]

knock kncok.... the one and only wcm ultralite with a 2002 miata engine and gt28r turbo here. i love the ultralite because i dont need to call brian for parts. once you KNOW what part you need you can buy it anywhere. upgrades from brians design are also available on almost every aspect of the car (not saying that his design is insufficient).

 

i do like the look of the caterham/westfield over the ultralite but i think its all about that big mouth. i love the width (im a skinny lithuanian ass), the low lights, and the ability to drive it daily with 19" wheels .

 

wcm ultralite for the win here.

[BusaNostra]

Ok--here is "my clone is better than yours": a real 7 waiting for you--buy it now before someone grab it.

 

FOR SALE 1967 Lotus Super 7 Series II. The 1600cc crossflow engine has been rebuilt by a professional Formula Ford race shop. It has only been run on the dyno. The frame has been fully triangulated and a "racing" roll bar was added. The body has been re-skinned by a professional race shop. It has a fuel cell, brand new wheels, and rebuilt dash with brand new instruments. It needs shocks, brakes and final assembly. I have run out of space in my garage, so it is for sale for the best offer. Dick Ryan Castro Valley CA Home 510-886-1581 Work 650-312-4022 rryan@frk.com

Edited September 3, 2009 by BusaNostra

[oilteq]

Attached is a picture of a Birkin and an S2K. Some people look at this image and are immediately drawn to one or the other, perhaps depending on that person’s size.

 

There was a guy of average size that went into the Birkin shop that was here a few years back, but he bought a Superformance because it was slightly larger. I think his daily driver was an SUV. Later, this larger than average guy went in, sat down in a Birkin, and said, “This ain’t bad.” The shop owner was a bit surprised until he found out the guy owned a classic Mini.

 

Try a couple cars on for size and see what fits you best.

[kennyrayandersen]

Attached is a picture of a Birkin and an S2K. Some people look at this image and are immediately drawn to one or the other, perhaps depending on that person’s size.

 

There was a guy of average size that went into the Birkin shop that was here a few years back, but he bought a Superformance because it was slightly larger. I think his daily driver was an SUV. Later, this larger than average guy went in, sat down in a Birkin, and said, “This ain’t bad.” The shop owner was a bit surprised until he found out the guy owned a classic Mini.

 

Try a couple cars on for size and see what fits you best.

 

WOW – I always thought that the Ultralite looked fairly small in the pictures – that’s a REAL eye opener. It looks down right huge next to the Birkin. Your wise counsel is well taken. I’m in Korea working right now and driving a Matiz (800cc), my last 4 cars in the States were an Mazda 3, Echo, Corolla, 944 turbo, so none of them big, in fact quite small. Since, when I’m home living in the States, I’m in TX, land of the free, home of the brave [packing heat]; I can get to both WCM (Brian) and TMW (Dick) to try them on and check them out up close -- Both of them are just down the road from Ft. Worth Ah, decisions, decisions!

 

Like I was saying I think I like the looks of the Birkin, but would prefer a domestic product, though I think the Duratec is available in the States no? Isn’t that what’s in my Mazda 3? Still, that Vtec Ahhhh! Is most of the other stuff that comes on the Birkin hard to source? Do you have to go to Birkin to get spares?

 

Does the Birkin ‘kit’ come with the engine etc.? What is required to complete (for comparison purposes, since I have a pretty good handle on the S2K situation).

 

I’ve heard some from the S2K guys – any Birkin guys want to chime in? I’m pretty sure I don’t want a Caterham as I can’t afford to be authentic (lol). The Westfield is nice, don’t get me wrong, but for some reason I don’t find them quite as attractive. The S2K is kind of edgy and updated, the Birkin more classic. Thoughts?

Edited September 4, 2009 by kennyrayandersen

[MHKflyer52]

I’ve heard some from the S2K guys – any Birkin guys want to chime in? I’m pretty sure I don’t want a Caterham as I can’t afford to be authentic (lol). The Westfield is nice, don’t get me wrong, but for some reason I don’t find them quite as attractive. The S2K is kind of edgy and updated, the Birkin more classic. Thoughts?

 

Well I cannot speak for the owners in the group that own other makes but have you considered maybe building your own from scratch as some of us on this site have like me and I would have to say Mazda (Franklin7) as it has had so many major mods that Mazda should be considered a scratch builder from what I know and see even if Franklin7 did start out as a Rotus 7 before Mazda got the bug. It really is not that hard to do if you have a space to do it in and enjoy working with your hands. Heck if I can do it then anyone with the ability to read a ruler / tape measure and knows the difference from an open end wrench and a box end wrench and is willing to learn to weld can build a nice replica 7 with the components they want and can be sourced here at a reasonable price and delivery time.

Don't get me wrong I like the Caterhams and Berkins and Westfields but I am one of those cheap SOB's that looks at something and says I can do that for a lot less and then dose it and usually finds that in the long run it would have be cheaper to purchase one but not half the fun so it is a personal choice you just have to make and one that if you do make will put a smile on your face every time you get in it and go for a ride. :driving:

[kennyrayandersen]

I considered it pretty long and hard -- I got the book, down loaded some plans etc. For me, it's a time thing, as in I ain't got none. I'm not exaggerating when I say I have worked 60 hours a week minimum for the last 5 years and 56 a week the year before that one. Last year I worked a bit more than 3400 hours;so, I really don't have time to sort out a lot of stuff -- I want to be bolting. Don't get me wrong, I like the concept, but right now it would just take me too darn long to do it from scratch -- I give you props though and r-e-s-p-e-c-t for going that route.

 

I've got another dream of making a Guzzi-powered Morgan 3-wheeled replica -- and I'll have to do that one from scratch. I thought I'd cut my teeth on this one, before jumping headlong into the scratch building.

[Mondo]

Kenny,

As for the picture, keep in mind it's all relative... both cars are smaller than what you drove. One is tiny, the other is itsy-bitsy;)

 

That being said, a Birkin was my second choice.

[Kitcat]

People talk about saving money building or assembling things themselves, then mention the scary hours of time invested in scratch building, or even assembling something. I understand the investment of 1000's of hours from the I-built-it-myself perspective. It's the journey not the destination. But, if what you want is a car to drive and the fun of screwing it together is attractive, but a luxury you cant afford, then buy something someone else has made.

 

From a purely dollars and sense perpsective, you can make a great deal capitalizing on some one elses tireless efforts. I am not sure what Martin is hoping to get for his amazing scratch built Se7en. But if his hours invested were fairly priced (let's say $100 hour for his talent and skill at car fabrication) then he will probably take a loss when his car sells. If you just value the car by the cost of its components, then he will make a killing. But the components didn't build themselves.

 

When I factor in what I make an hour in my vocation, then it makes sense to have some one else do the construction.

 

My dad used to spend hundreds of hours trout fishing. For him the occaslional trout was incidental to the effort, which was the point of the enterprise. If building a car is something you have the passion and talent and time for, do it. I think the happiest people on this site are in this group. But not because they saved money. Instead it's the love of creating something with their own hands.

 

I think the next happiest group are the folks, like me, who think that just driving the car is reward enough, regardless of who built it. So, you decide.

[MHKflyer52]

From a purely dollars and sense perpsective, you can make a great deal capitalizing on some one elses tireless efforts. But if his hours invested were fairly priced (let's say $100 hour for his talent and skill at car fabrication) then he will probably take a loss when his car sells. If you just value the car by the cost of its components, then he will make a killing. But the components didn't build themselves.

 

Kitcat,

Thanks for the nice plug and very kind words "I am not sure what Martin is hoping to get for his amazing scratch built Se7en." and no I do not expect to recoup any of the hours I put into building my 7 at all. That would be like becoming King of America a very crazy idea by any means. I have said that I am asking $17500.00 US dollars and that I will consider any and all offers and if the correct person makes an offer for an amount that I feel is correct and it will be going to someone who will enjoy it then they will own a 7 that has been good to me in more than one way.

Did not mean to highjack this thread or even try to promote the sale of my 7 in it. :seeya:

[oilteq]

I can get to both WCM (Brian) and TMW (Dick) to try them on

 

I think that is a good choice of action. Brian and Dick are both fine people, and I would not hesitate to deal with either of them. I think you can buy either car at any stage of completion from a bare frame to turn-key. A rolling chasis where you just install the drivetrain and tune the entire car may fit your desire to create and your time constraints. I think you will find parts are available in the U.S. for either car. The Birkin uses a Ford Zetec or Duratec engine, found in the Focus. You may want to check out Birkin's support group http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/birkinowners

 

Whether you prefer size small or extra small, either is much more fun than any production car I have driven.