PCA bans Caterhams from US HPDE events for being too fast

[Croc]

A USA7s member (Blubarisax) recently achieved the rare feat of being 'too fast' at US Porsche Club of America (PCA) HPDE (track day) events which resulted in the PCA National Executive posting new rules on what conststitutes an acceptable car for future HPDE events. While I have not seen the revised rules, I understand from a reputable PCA official the new rule effectively says that the body must extend to all 4 corners of the car and integrate over the wheels. In theory this would permit the standard clam shells fenders to be used however, I suspect the rules would be revised again to just ban sevens completely once the PCA person who rewrote the rules realized his (or quite possibly her...) error.:smash:

 

I want to congratulate Karl on replaying history yet again on the Caterham for being "too fast to race":

- 1960s - banned from mixed car class racing in the US

- 1970s - banned from mixed car class racing in the UK

- 2003 - banned from racing at the Nurburging 24 Hours

- 2012 - banned from PCA HPDE events :bs:

 

 

Congratulations Karl! :cooldude:

Edited September 23, 2012 by Croc
clarified what PCA is as per PM rec'd by email today

[Mondo]

Wow. I would of thought there were other classes with faster cars (don't know much about autox).

At one time WCM was looking at putting a full body over their Ultralite... it was called the LM. Never completed though.

[MichaelD]

Did Karl go out and whip some GT2 or GT3 at an PCA HPDE again?

 

:-)

[Boxologist]

Karl got fast? Congrats on laying down the speed after coming back from this spring's incident. Can't wait to hear this from my local PCA chapter when I see them in November to beat up their cones.

[Croc]

Karl got fast?

 

Come on Jon - you know that is cruel. :troll: Karl is always going to be much faster than you at any of these events simply because he turns up and you, by contrast, are yet to turn up because you are [insert word here].

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Side note - I think the word is "chicken"

Edited September 23, 2012 by Croc

[S1Steve]

That statement will give me a great topic to stir the pot next weekend....

 

Side note- the word I'll use will not be chicken ..... LOL

[blubarisax]

Karl got fast? Congrats on laying down the speed after coming back from this spring's incident. Can't wait to hear this from my local PCA chapter when I see them in November to beat up their cones.

With your local chapter, I'd use the don't ask strategy if you ever want to do an hpde. I suspect autocross is OK. The new rule is not widely publicized yet. All the regions will allow a Miata as long as it has a rainbow bumper sticker! Just be warned that the GT2 and cup car owners do get awfly crabby when you blow past them on the back straight. The corners they understand. :auto:

[yellowss7]

Come on Jon - you know that is cruel. :troll: Karl is always going to be much faster than you at any of these events simply because he turns up and you, by contrast, are yet to turn up because you are [insert word here].

 

Side note - I think the word is "chicken"

 

 

WOW Box, are you going to let those guys smack you around like that? Sounds to me that you are going to have to show some Testicular Fortitude and man up. (I mean Show up) to our next Seven's day on the track. Otherwise I think a name change is in order on the forum. I'm sure croc and Steve can come up with something appropriate. :smilielol5::seeya:

 

Tom

[blubarisax]

Seriously Jon, we would all love you to join us at the track at the next event!

[DeanG]

The clam style fenders should provide enough aerodynamic drag and front end lift to slow down a Se7en. Even the most ham fisted Porsche driver should be able to pass on a straight.

[MichaelD]

So Karl,

 

What really happened at the PCA event?

 

Details please.

[Croc]

Putting aside my comments about Karl being too fast, :rofl: the "public" explanation comes down to track safety. PCA would have to be concerned about what wayward Caterhams can do to someones 911, 996, 997, 924, 944, 9....etc. It is not a long mental stretch (even for a Porsche driver) to jump to potential legal liability issues in the event of Karl (or more likely Jon) taking out in an incident someone's Porsche show pony. They are probably less concerned what a 3800lb 911 could do to Karl in a 1400lb seven but it just might have also entered their thoughts quickly while they were debating which color they should next anodize their knob.... Personally I think it smells of elitist snobbery - how dare they take away my opportunity to show up a Porsche on track!

 

I do find this exceptionally ironic given the well known 911 series tendency for the rear snapping out into uncontrollable lift off oversteer :svengo:

Edited September 23, 2012 by Croc

[blubarisax]

Mike,

 

I suspect my little off at Lime Rock in April got the attention of PCA National. I bet they review all accidents for opportunities to improve safety. PCA does run good HPDEs. They never said anything, but when I tried to register for a NNJR PCA event in August, I was told their insurance did not cover open wheel cars. Being a stand up kind of guy, I checked with the local regions for other events I had already registered for to make sure I was OK. Neither Metro PCA or Riesentoter (Philly) had herd of the "insurance" issue. But when they checked with National, they were told I was not covered.

 

I think they lumped the Caterham in with Open Wheel cars for liability reasons. Another case of lawyers ruling the world through fear of litigation.

 

All the people I met at about a dozen PCA events were great, no issues at all. Not every instructor was comfortable in an open car, but that extended to Porsche Boxters as well.

 

Anyway, it's moved me one step closer to breaking down and joining Tom and Croc at NJMP...

[MichaelD]

Karl,

 

Thanks for the facts. A little harsh since your open wheels had nothing to do with your off.

 

BTW: I have an extra set of clam shells. They extend wheel coverage as seen from above ;-) and the deep green would look good with your orange and black.

[Guest Terry]

L7 2 fast to race

[Kitcat]

I have avoided PCA events because I know they have safety concerns about our cars. You have to have a instructor sign off on your driving and you have to provide him/her w/race seat, 5 point harness, arm restraint, all properly installed, per their opinion, not yours. None of my cars ever fit their rules (incl present 2, 1 of wh/has no passenger seat). When I have done PCA events in my other cars, they were well run, but way too many drivers, cars, and run groups for my tastes, so never felt I was missing much by being excluded in my Caterham.

 

All that being said, I do respect PCA and their desire to make events safe. Ditto Audi club and BMW, all of whose events I have done and are clones of PCA.

[turboeric]

This may be due to the fact that many Porsche owners are lawyers.

[MHKflyer52]

A USA7s member (Blubarisax) recently achieved the rare feat of being 'too fast' at US Porsche Club of America (PCA) HPDE (track day) events which resulted in the PCA National Executive posting new rules on what conststitutes an acceptable car for future HPDE events. While I have not seen the revised rules, I understand from a reputable PCA official the new rule effectively says that the body must extend to all 4 corners of the car and integrate over the wheels. In theory this would permit the standard clam shells fenders to be used however, I suspect the rules would be revised again to just ban sevens completely once the PCA person who rewrote the rules realized his (or quite possibly her...) error.:smash:

 

I want to congratulate Karl on replaying history yet again on the Caterham for being "too fast to race":

- 1960s - banned from mixed car class racing in the US

- 1970s - banned from mixed car class racing in the UK

- 2003 - banned from racing at the Nurburging 24 Hours

- 2012 - banned from PCA HPDE events :bs:

 

 

Congratulations Karl! :cooldude:

 

Did Karl go out and whip some GT2 or GT3 at an PCA HPDE again?

 

:-)

 

Hi Friends,

 

As a long time PCA member and having been the Santa Barbara Region Autocross Co-chair and team member for a number of years in Zone 8 I can say that no open wheel cars (Formula V, Formula Fords, Go-Carts, etc.) or cars with modifications to the body that leave the wheels exposed like a formula car are not covered by PCA's Insurance Program with the exception of the 1962 Porsche 804 ( Here is a link to the 804: http://www.porsche.com/usa/eventsandracing/motorsport/philosophy/history/racingcars/1962-804formel1/ ) at any Porsche performance events such as Driver's Ed or DE day, Time Trials on a racing track / surface due to the rules about fender and body layout even if they are a street legal vehicle.

 

So I can see where this post originates from but not for being too fast unless there are a lot of slow Porsche drivers in your region which there might be who hate to be shown up by a perceived little car with not a lot of HP compared to most Porsche models that cost about what the base model Porsche now starts at on the showroom floor....LOL.....and yes I own a Porsche or two and have been know to point out to some frustrated GT3 owners that my clone 7 cost less than one front wheel and hub assembly for there car....:rofl:....

 

This is technicality is covered in the PCA National Rules for Club Racing http://www.pca.org/portals/0/images/CR/forms/2012%20PCA%20Club%20Racing%20Rule%20Book.pdf as it is the basis for all Zone Rules and Region Rules for High Performance Driving Events which includes Driver's Education, Time Trials and for Club Racing and states in the PCA Club Racing Program Table of Contents "3-PCA CLUB RACING PROGRAM" 3 Car requirements, for Club Racing that " Only Porsche manufactured sports cars are eligible." (found on 2012 PCA Club Racing Rules subparagraph 3 of the linked PDF of the 2012 Rules) for CLUB RACING ONLY besides being a PCA Club Member.

 

As for Driver's Ed or DE the rules Specifically Prohibits WHEEL-TO-WHEEL COMPETITION as stated in Driver's Education Minimum Standards Definition paragraph 36. Time Trials of the National Standards and is "open to all cars that have fenders attached to the vehicle body at all four corners" as described in the minimum standards Definition see link http://www.pca.org/portals/de/2012%20Driver%20Education%20min%20std%202012.pdf

 

Nowhere in the Driver's Education Minimum Standards do I find a requirement for one to be a PCA member but I know that our region tells non-members that members have priority to fill the grid of these events.

 

I have not seen or been told that a Caterham or Birkin or Westfield or Locost Sevens with Clamshell fenders would fall into the classification of an open wheel car (Formula Car) for an autocross or DE or Time Trial if they have clamshell fenders as it is not to be wheel to wheel competition as DE and Time Trials are for training and to establish grid class's by ability and speed for safety reasons and barging rights if you get my meaning.

 

The Lotus 7 Type Cars are classed in the X class as all non Porsche's are for classing purposes for DE and Time Trial's to the best of my knowledge and understanding and many Porsche owners just do not have a clue to what a fun car a 7 is and they are just jealous I due belive.

Edited September 25, 2012 by MHKflyer52
left out a word in RED LETTERS

[MichaelD]

Having read the attached PCA rules I agree that Sevens with clamshells meet their definition of "fenders attached to the body of the car at all four corners."

 

However, the rest of their rules give them alot of latitude for exclusion if that were their goal. Besides it is their party.

[JBH]

I started out with Porsche Club, doing lots of track events all over the Northeast. I was track chairman for awhile and a president. I can tell you, the PCA is very nervous about all track events and the insurance requirements have escalated over the years - I suspect because of a number of terrible DE accidents.

 

Honestly, I don't know why a Caterham driver would want to attend a PCA event. There are always lots of cars on the track, many run groups and not a lot of opportunity to socialize with people of a similar mindset.

 

With so many tracks and DE schools available, I see no reason to even think about registering for a PCA. I like Chin Motorsports quite a bit, but they tend to run events more in the Southeast. Track Daze was also a good experience.