CSR with non-Cossie Duratech

[Croc]

Bruce, I appreciate your commitment to these cars to explore these options. The wet sump option really is only a viable road option. It needs to come with a strong warning on no track work - the risk is too high with our types of cars with the grip we have. There have been too many cases I have heard of where a wet sump has ventured on track for a day and done some inadvertent damage whether it be Crossflow, Zetec or Duratec. It is a very rare Sevens owner who can resist the siren call of a track in their car for at least once. I suspect another forum owner with many recent frustrating experiences in their car from a Duratec wet sump will be along shortly.....

[rikker]

Bruce, I appreciate your commitment to these cars to explore these options. The wet sump option really is only a viable road option. It needs to come with a strong warning on no track work - the risk is too high with our types of cars with the grip we have. There have been too many cases I have heard of where a wet sump has ventured on track for a day and done some inadvertent damage whether it be Crossflow, Zetec or Duratec. It is a very rare Sevens owner who can resist the siren call of a track in their car for at least once. I suspect another forum owner with many recent frustrating experiences in their car from a Duratec wet sump will be along shortly.....

 

Is that not what Bruce asked...?

A cost reduction for those that choose to run the car on the road.

I think the point of this thread was how to lower costs and keep the guts of the CSR, obviously something has to give.

There is a HUGE difference too between what is important road users v the race trackers

Edited December 17, 2013 by rikker

[TurboWood]

How is a wet sump possible from a packaging point of view with the Duratec? I measured the total height of the Cosworth version at 23" from bottom of dry-sump to top of oil fill cap. The sump is still the lowest thing under the car.

 

Attached is a picture of the car I measured (not mine).

 

*edit* I should clarify. The 23" is to the bottom of the pan at the front of the car which is not actually the very lowest thing in the picture. The bell housing is the lowest thing. Maybe you have ~1" of available space.

 

Daniel

Edited December 17, 2013 by TurboWood

[Kitcat]

Raceline sells a wetsump for Duratecs. All new Birkins are so equipped (including my '09). I suspect they supply the wet pan for current stock Caterhams as well.I think I had 3&1/2" clearance. Not suitable for track, as noted.

[Croc]

Is that not what Bruce asked...?

A cost reduction for those that choose to run the car on the road.

I think the point of this thread was how to lower costs and keep the guts of the CSR, obviously something has to give.

There is a HUGE difference too between what is important road users v the race trackers

 

David - I appreciate the point you are trying to make but I think you missed mine. I have seen too many instances, whether it be cars or other items, where the buyer takes a cost short cut and then instantly complains about the seller when something goes wrong as they used the item in a way it was not designed/intended for. Some types of cost cutting are a step too far or just not a good idea and when it goes wrong it is always the buyer moaning that they were misled or ill-informed - its never their fault. I can just see someone buying a wet sump Seven on the basis that they will never do a track day and then turn around and do just one track day and then blame the engine builder/car builder when the highly possible engine damage happens. There have been enough examples on this forum over the years. I recall Dick Brink getting criticised for some of this. IMHO a dry sump is a prudent investment on a car with as much grip as ours have whether it be on the road or track.

 

Feel free to diagree - opinions are like a55holes and everyone has one. Some even have two...

[yellowss7]

Slightly off topic, but still regarding Duratec Dry sumps, I noticed that Raceline, and Cosworth both have internal dry sump pump options, with Raceline offering a 1 stage pump, and Cosworth offering a 2 or 3 stage pump. Obvioulsy there are cost differentials, but what's the thought on the 1,2 or 3 stage pump set up?

 

Tom

[xcarguy]

My previous Seven (Birkin) had a Raceline (wet sump) pan;,installed for clearance purposes only.

[JeffersonRaley]

I think a wet sump option would be ok, with the proper warnings. Everyone says the CSR rides much better, so it would be a good option for a road-only car.

 

Over the years I've blown something like 5 engines from oil starvation under cornering in various cars. That includes one really bad weekend where I blew the motor in my race car, then took my tow vehicle (Subaru Legacy GT) out and blew the motor in it too. So I'll check the box for a dry sump option.

[BruceBe]

Strong, valid opinions all the way around :-)

 

Certainly, a dry-sumped configuration is preferred for track work, and wet sumps can starve and fail, often without the driver noticing. I'm glad the consensus is that a wet-sumped Duratec should not see a racetrack, at least without further oil system improvements.

 

The "stages" in a dry-sump refer to the number and location of scavenging (pick-up) and output (pressure) points. For external belt-driven pump dry sump systems, it is not uncommon to have multiple output stages feeding different areas of a high-output race engine. Internal pump systems typically have a single output stage, with one or more scavenge stages, picking up from multiple points of oil drain-back. Even a single stage dry sump system is superior to a wet sump system for several reasons:

 

1) The scavenge stage feeds a reservoir, which will have a steady column of de-aerated oil. Uncovering the scavenge stage pickup point(s) does not immediately translate into a loss of oil pressure.

2) The output side of the system is drawing oil from the reservoir, which is a buffer of de-aerated, cooler oil, regardless of g-loading.

3) Correctly engineered systems usually generate vacuum in the crankcase, which is beneficial to engine performance.

 

Wet sump systems can be augmented to perform competently on a race-track. Not all pans are created equal (Raceline makes a good one), and an oil accumulator (e.g. Accusump) must be used. Once the dust settles, the installation of a good wet-sump pan and Accusump system is about half the financial distance to a basic dry sump. And, the Accusump introduces a few issues of its own (e.g. make sure it is correctly charged, and "on"; Accusump packaging/plumbing). Kitcat's Zetec-powered racecar is a wet-sump system with Accusump, and it took a podium finish at the 25-hours of Thunderhill.

 

-Bruce

[Kitcat]

Thx Bruce-I thought I had a dry sump system. When you say "charged" and "on" that means...? Apparently its fool-proof:).

[BruceBe]

Thx Bruce-I thought I had a dry sump system. When you say "charged" and "on" that means...? Apparently its fool-proof:).

 

Yours is. There is a solenoid-operated valve that opens when you turn on the ignition. At that point, the pressurized accusump is pre-lubing your engine, pushing stored oil through the engine. When you start the engine, oil-pressure generated by the oil pump pushes oil back into the Accusump, and everything equalizes. During periods of oil starvation, the Accusump provides a steady supply of oil, unless it exhausts the volume of oil in the Accusump cylinder.

 

BTW Kitcat - to check your oil:

1) With the engine hot, rev @3000RPM for 10-seconds

2) Shut off engine while revving

3) Wait 45-seconds

4) Check oil on stick - should be in the middle of the hashed area

 

Otherwise - if the car has been idling for a while, or, you shut the car off and then turned on the ignition, the accusump will fully or partially drain (2-3 quarts) into the crankcase. This will show either a high or normal oil level when, in fact, the engine sump will be low at operating RPMs.

 

-Bruce

P.S. This is the case with any Accusump-equipped car

[Kitcat]

Thx Bruce, most informative. I have been putting 6 quarts in the system at oil changes, hopefully that is ball park?

[FE07]

Bruce,

Thanks for all the info on wet vs. dry sump differences.

 

Any idea of approximate difference in price between Duratec/Zetec with wet sump/accusump set up vs. same engine with dry sump?

 

I know for me since the car would replace a race car and definitely be tracked, I'd probably want the dry sump set up. Pretty impressive however that the accusump protected the engine so well for 25 hrs!

 

While I'm asking, approx. difference between one of the above engines dry sumped and the 2.3 Cosworth?

 

Thanks to everybody for all the info,

 

Jim A.

[BruceBe]

We're in the planning stages of a 200HP non-Cosworth option, and cost reduction is a primary success factor. So - we'll have an answer for you in the coming weeks. This discussion thread is to gauge interest and requirements.

 

As a reference point, by the time the dust settles with exchange rate, shipping, and duty, a Cosworth CSR 2.3L (a fully prepped engine, ready to be dropped in, including roller barrel intake, accessory drive, clutch, etc.) will likely cost between $16-$18K.

 

With a 200HP target, the goal is to provide a more financially approachable package that is drop-in compatible with the CSR vehicle kit.

 

With regards to dry sump vs. wet sump costs - I have yet to run across a dry sump system that did not cost at least $2K, once all of the plumbing and ancillary parts are factored in. And that seems to be independent to vehicle marque.

-Bruce

[yellowss7]

Those numbers sound about right. I'm considering a switch out of my Rover K for a Duratec and looking at just the go fast parts alone, not including the base motor, you get up into the 5 figure area very quickly. I guess it's like the old saying "how fast do you want to go? how much money do you have?"

 

It's just ashame that all the money goes into going faster on the straights, as any seven is quick in the turns.

 

Tom

[a.moore]

We're in the planning stages of a 200HP non-Cosworth option, and cost reduction is a primary success factor.

 

Aside from a set of cams (and maybe valve springs), a free flowing intake and exhaust, and a tune, what else do you anticipate?

[silverfox]

+1

Stock 2.3 with 2.0l pistons and ITB's should be good for 195 give or take.

Main cost issue is the reliable and effective oil supply - maybe the accusump as noted previously is the optimal price solution.....?