(How bad) Did I screw-up?

[coffee break]

I was moving my 7 from the garage to the workshop and took a few laps around my private road course and experienced a temporary loss of oil pressure. The motor stalled, it re-fired and I made a few more laps and noticed the pressure dropped to 0 bar but it returned to 5 bar. I then drove to the workshop and parked the car. It seemed to run normally and no knocking sounds were noticed. I checked the oil level and it was low but did wet the dipstick.

 

Now, some detail and explanation...

 

My workshop is behind the house and there is a loop in front of the house. The loop is roughly a 70 ft dia circle (half is round and it tightens up as it meets the main slab).

 

So, to my question(s)

Did I hurt the rod and main bearings?

How can I examine the motor for signs of damage?

 

I can get the car in the air and remove the pan. Should I remove bearing caps and look at the surfaces?

 

BTW I was moving the car to the shop since I will not be able to drive it until mid-February. I have a bandage on my clutch foot the size of a ski boot. It will come off and be replaced by a plastic boot.

[jlumba81]

You can send the oil off to get analyzed. It'll show if there's any bearing material in the oil.

 

Quick google search brought up Blackstone Labs.

Edited December 21, 2013 by jlumba81

[rnr]

Are you sure the stall was due to low oil pressure? I had my oil pressure gauge crap out on me and it scared the hell out of me when I saw zero oil pressure at T2 at Sears Point. Immediately pitted and checked the car only to find out that the gauge was going bad and thus was producing faulty readings.

[bball7754]

The Caterham electrical oil pressure senders are known to be wonky. Mine was, to the point that I just ignored it. It would work, then not, then work, etc. Finally replaced it with a mechanical gauge.

 

So, certainly a good chance that nothing out of the ordinary happened.

 

Steve

[TheDingo8MyBaby]

i'll second what bball said and add that crossflows are notorious for oil starvation on right handers. Generally overfilling the sump is not good practice, but does tend to help.

 

With regards to the health of your motor - as long as it wasn't without pressure for long (and not under a lot of load), it's probably ok. Looking at the bearings or doing an oil analysis are ways you may be able to tell, but they will not give you 100% certainty.

[Kitcat]

Overfilling my X-flow equaled spillage w/ huge plumes of white smoke as it burned off the engine/headers on deceleration, and a nice coat of oil on windshield on acceleration. Never had oil starvation on shaved Toyo RA1's, didn't try slicks for fear of that issue tho. Ditto what everyone said re Caterham oil pressure gauge. It will advise if you have some pressure, just wont say how much. Mine never registered over 15-20 once warm, a mechanical gauge showed 60 lbs.

[coffee break]

In things like this, my mind goes to the worst outcome.

- Oil analysis, didn't think about that. Test kit requested.

- Some extra oil in the pan.

 

I'm planning on looking at the bearings (one at a time), the question may be "what is the difference between normal wear and starvation damage?"

Thanks for the input.

Edited December 21, 2013 by coffee break
Requested oil test kit

[MHKflyer52]

In things like this, my mind goes to the worst outcome.

- Oil analysis, didn't think about that. Test kit requested.

- Some extra oil in the pan.

 

I'm planning on looking at the bearings (one at a time), the question may be "what is the difference between normal wear and starvation damage?"

Thanks for the input.

Hi coffee break,

Just read your post and I would suggest that you connect a direct pressure gauge to the motor and see what the oil pressure reads before you spend the time to drop the pan and pull the end caps of the rods and main bearing caps. If you do go that far you might as well just replace the bearings if there is no evidence of scoring. Just my belief and hope this helps.

 

:driving:

[ultraslow]

Did he same thing on first drive. 1.5 in ground clearance and gasoline filler cap at station; knocked a hole in stock sump. Unwittingly drove it home, then tried to go back into town. Motor died, then I noticed the oil pressure at zero. Towed it home, patched sump with gas tank patch, refilled, No knocks, pressure fine, I bought a lottery ticket since I had just dodged a bullet. Those Kents are tough. Old as the hills (mine is a rebuilt '67) Apparently left behind by Druids when they departed the pattern. It has been two years since. I know I was very very lucky, maybe you are too? Just my story. Bought a more shallow wet sump from Redline soon after also raised ride height to 3.5in. Good luck. YMMV

ultraslow

[coffee break]

ultraslow,

 

Thanks for telling of your experience. It's good to hear.

 

Carl

[coffee break]

Bought a more shallow wet sump from Redline soon after also raised ride height to 3.5in. Good luck. YMMV

ultraslow

 

I've seen a few references to "Redline" as a source for parts. I'm only familiar with Redline Oil. Please post some links.

 

Thanks, Carl

[Kitcat]

Google "Redline UK".

[xcarguy]

I've seen a few references to "Redline" as a source for parts. I'm only familiar with Redline Oil. Please post some links.

 

Thanks, Carl

 

http://www.redlinecomponents.co.uk/

 

Another possible source (used them when I had my Birkin)

 

http://www.raceline.co.uk/index.asp

Edited January 8, 2014 by xcarguy

[oilteq]

There were a couple of references to oil analysis, which may be of limited value. Oil analysis involves burning the sample and reading the light frequencies off the flame to determine which metals at what concentrations. The metal particles have to vaporize when burned to show up in the report, which typically happens with particles 5 microns and smaller. I have seen a sample from a failed engine where you could see metal particles floating in the sample, but the analysis said everything is normal. Something broke all at once, and did not create normal small progressive-wear particles. Oil starvation would probably create larger than normal wear particles that would not show up in a routine oil analysis.

 

High lead levels in an oil analysis would indicate a problem, but normal lead levels does not mean you are in the clear.

 

I recommend cutting the can off of your oil filter and examining the media for particles. A saw makes a mess, but you can buy a filter cutter that works like a pipe cutter, or just clamp the filter in a vise and cut the can off with a hammer and chisel. Any visible metal is abnormal.

 

I am certainly not trying to leave the impression that oil analysis is worthless, but it is more appropriate for normal progressive wear. A thousand miles from now it could tell you if your wear rate is normal, or if perhaps the starvation caused damage that is producing accelerated wear.

 

Keep us posted.

[coffee break]

I finally was able to get the car in the air to look at the pan. It looks to like to remove the pan, the crossflow engine needs to be separated from the transmission. There is a shield covering the bellhousing that is hiding 2 pan bolts. So, if I really want to pull the bearing caps, I need to remove the lump? :banghead:

[Sabbot]

Disclaimer: I've never actually tried what I'm about to suggest but I do currently have my Caterham stored on a 4 post ramp and had a good look at the sump and bolt clearances before suggesting the following;

 

The bad news is that if you have a full stone shield / spacer between the engine and gearbox you will have to split the gearbox from the engine to get at the back two bolts of the sump (The bottom of the stone shield on my engine is cut to be able to access the sump bolts without messing with the gearbox)

 

The good news is that because the shield on mine is cut it's fairly easy to check how much space you actually need to get access to the back two bolts and I'm pretty sure that you don't absolutely have to remove the engine completely to get enough space to get at rear sump bolts. With a slim 7/16 socket and 3/8 or 1/4 drive you should be able to remove the sump bolts with the engine in the car. The starter will need to come out and the engine mounts (single lower bolts to chassis) would need to be removed. You will need to unscrew the top two gearbox bellhousing to engine bolts by ~½ inch and remove all of the other gearbox to engine bolts but if you’re careful pretty much everything else can stay intact while you slide the engine forward 1/2 inch or so to let you get the socket into the rear sump bolts. You will need to support the gearbox and the engine separately while you do all of this otherwise the engine will be hanging off the gearbox input shaft spigot bush...which is not a great idea. Figuring out how to support and slide the engine forward will be a little tricky. It would be tempting to jack it on the sump ...but you are about (hopefully) to remove this, but if you were intending to take it out completely you probably have an engine crane to support from above.

 

I can take some detailed pictures of the sump bolts clearances etc. tomorrow if useful.

 

At the end of the day if the above suggestion doesn’t work you won’t have wasted much time and you’re really only a set of radiator hoses, throttle cable, distributor wiring and exhaust header bolts away from being able to remove the whole lump anyway.

p.s.

If you end up removing the engine you won’t have to worry to much about the wiring to the oil pressure sender because after all of this you’re hopefully going to throw that away along with the electrical gauge and fit a mechanical capillary gauge that actually gives an accurate account of what is going on inside the engine

[AndyB]

p.s.

If you end up removing the engine you won’t have to worry to much about the wiring to the oil pressure sender because after all of this you’re hopefully going to throw that away along with the electrical gauge and fit a mechanical capillary gauge that actually gives an accurate account of what is going on inside the engine

 

If you go the mechanical capillary gauge way just make sure you route the copper tubing where it won't suffer from vibration and ultimately a break. That can empty an engine pretty quick as it distributes oil into every crevice under the hood:ack:

[xcarguy]

Instead of copper tubing, could a AN -4 braided SS line be used?

[AndyB]

Instead of copper tubing, could a AN -4 braided SS line be used?

 

Perhaps they come that way now, I'm going from experience as a very young lad and his Moggy convertible some 40 odd years ago

[xcarguy]

Disclaimer: I've never actually tried what I'm about to suggest . . . . . . At the end of the day if the above suggestion doesn't work you won’t have wasted much time and you’re really only a set of radiator hoses, throttle cable, distributor wiring and exhaust header bolts away from being able to remove the whole lump anyway.

 

This post is for motivational purposes only (well, and to let you know that you aren't alone in your automotive pursuits) . . . . . just in case you have to pull the engine. :ack: I've had my Stalker back in hand (second time for me to own this car) for a bit over eighteen months and have had the drive train out of the car twice since; first time was for a transmission change (UPGRADE!!!) and the second time was to fix an extremely small seep (I hate ANY kind of leak) on the 'new' transmission's bearing retainer . . . and . . . to do a few engine mods (MORE UPGRADES!!!).

 

FWIW, even if I hadn't had it in mind to do the engine mods, I would still have pulled the drive train anyway in order to repair the leak (yes, I am my own worst enemy). :willy_nilly:

 

To Sevens and the fun they bring us. :cheers: