Harness for road and track

[BlueBDA]

There's an existing thread on harnesses for track, but I'm starting this new thread relating a harnesses for road and track. It also seems that the FIA rules changed in recent years. I am having trouble finding any harness that works for me. My FIA 2019 belts are expired.

 

Background:

 

- Many (all?) tracks require 5 or 6 point belts in an open car like a Seven. 6 point are generally considered more comfortable, and safer I believe?

 

- 2" shoulder belts are not supposed to be used without a HANS device.

 

- Sevens use bolt-in harnesses.

 

- As my seats are movable, I need adjustable lap belts. Pull-down adjusters fit in a Seven; I don't think there is room for pull-up adjusters.

 

Given all of the above, I need belts that bolt in, are 6-point, have 3" shoulder belts, and have pull-down lap belt adjusters. As far as I can tell, this does not exist. It's as if I have to decide whether to drive my car on the street or on tracks - but can't do both. I'm very frustrated. :banghead:

 

Advice?

[Croc]

Take one problem off the table. Don't use a HANS but look for something like the Simpson Hybrid which is intended to work somewhat more independently of the shoulder belts. The standard Caterham harness mounting points are too wide for a HANS anyway and need modification.

https://www.simpsonraceproducts.com/simpson-hybrid-head-neck-restraints

 

Mine has attachments to connect to the harness at the buckle. I went for this after my rather large scare 3 weeks back where I nearly rolled my seven and the lap belt attachments would hold you in better in the event of a roll over. After trialing last weekend, I felt much more tied in as I now have 10 points attaching me to to the car (6pt belts, 2 pt arm restrains, 2pt Simpson Hyrbid).

 

 

You want a 6 point harness. It takes no great imagination to imagine what would happen to your babymakers in an accident when the 5th belt rams them lovingly through the roof of your mouth. My current Caterham 6 pointer (expiring 2021) has the design where they go through metal loops on the lap belt and then to the buckle. This puts the pressure on your inner thighs instead of potentially giving you a scrotal "degloving" (to use the medical terminology).

 

I prefer the Caterham belts - they just fit. However, they are the old FIA designed (buckle on lap belt). The website does not show any harnesses in the new format right now. Maybe a phone call to Demon Tweeks in the UK to find out what others are using in FIA motorsport for Caterhams. We will not be the only ones with this issue and Demon Tweeks sell a lot of belts.

 

I have seen Schroth also used in Caterhams - you need the openwheeler type with short lap and longer shoulder. I think they may be pull up.

Edited June 29, 2020 by Croc

[JohnCh]

Shroth lap belts with the Flexi II option can be configured independently for either pull or pull down, and you can move the location of the adjuster to get it pretty close to the buckle. Comes in handy if you have something like Mog or Tillet seats.

 

-John

[BlueBDA]

Ok, after a bunch of phone calls, it looks like I've figured it out. I have ordered these Schroth FIA harnesses:

 

https://www.schrothracing.com/item/profi-ii-asm/competition-harnesses

 

to be configured by them with bolt-on ends, pull-down lap belt configuration, and added sub belts, also with bolt-on ends. As a bonus the camlock lives on the lap belt, so I can use these as 4-point harnesses on the street, so I am getting everything I wanted. Many thanks to Zach at Schroth USA (800-884-2358) who helped me figure all of that out.

 

Which I realize now is what JohnCh said above - thanks John. I understand it all now!

[Black Hole]

I have the Schroth Profi II set up. Do your sub belts attach at the rear bulkhead like they do on my SV? In my case I had to have HMS provide a custom length for the sub belts as the standard set up was too short. They were very accommodating but it was another $50 per belt to reweb with 6" more length.

[BlueBDA]

No - sub belts attach along the sides.

 

I have the Schroth Profi II set up. Do your sub belts attach at the rear bulkhead like they do on my SV? In my case I had to have HMS provide a custom length for the sub belts as the standard set up was too short. They were very accommodating but it was another $50 per belt to reweb with 6" more length.

[FE07]

Check the size of the holes in the brackets from Schroth to make sure the bolts that hold your current harnesses will slide through. Otherwise you'll have to enlarge them.

 

Jim

[BlueBDA]

Just looping back to give my experience. I have installed my Schroth belts, and did a track day this week. I am very happy with them - very comfortable, and easy to adjust. And the blue and yellow I got looks awesome in my blue and yellow car :-).

 

I bought them from HMS Motorsports, who was very accommodating. These were the only 6-point belts that I could find that:

 

- Have 2" lap belts (preferred)

 

- Have 3" shoulder belts (needed to use without a HANS device)

 

- Can be used with a HANS device

 

- Could be configured with the proper fittings to bolt into the Caterham

 

- Can be used a 6-point on the track

 

- Can be used as 4-point on the street.

 

Very happy with them.

 

 

[SanderGA]

I got the Caterham Schroth belts directly from Caterham. They are Schroth Formula 2X2. Six point harnesses. Two inch shoulder straps with pull down tighteners. I believe Caterham throws in the necessary 7 specific hardware. Key thing to know is that the crotch straps do not have male fasteners that plug into the cam lock. Instead, they have loops. The loop on the end of each crotch strap goes through a loop on the end of each lap strap. The shoulder strap goes through the loop on the end of the crotch strap and is then inserted into the cam buckle. Be aware of this feature/flaw before you buy them. I would much prefer a metal tab to insert into the cam lock over the loops as it would be easier to deal with.

 

Mine are labeled as FIA certified through 2025.

 

Here's the link.

[BlueBDA]

Do you drive on the street? I believe 2" shoulder belts are not recommended to be used without a HANS device.

 

My Schroth crotch straps plug right into the buckle.

 

I got the Caterham Schroth belts directly from Caterham. They are Schroth Formula 2X2. Six point harnesses. Two inch shoulder straps with pull down tighteners. I believe Caterham throws in the necessary 7 specific hardware. Key thing to know is that the crotch straps do not have male fasteners that plug into the cam lock. Instead, they have loops. The loop on the end of each crotch strap goes through a loop on the end of each lap strap. The shoulder strap goes through the loop on the end of the crotch strap and is then inserted into the cam buckle. Be aware of this feature/flaw before you buy them. I would much prefer a metal tab to insert into the cam lock over the loops as it would be easier to deal with.

 

Mine are labeled as FIA certified through 2025.

 

Here's the link.

[Croc]

There are a quite few studies out there, with some conflicting results, including some that are self serving “marketing studies”.

 

From reading them over time, my observations:

 

- it depends on what car you are driving

- legally we should not be using harnesses on the street. We should be using DOT three pointers. These give a little in an impact and therefore presumably ease the trauma on your neck being flung forward.

- harnesses hold you firmly and so the head is pretty much the only thing fling forward in an impact situation. The example is Dale Earnhardt. He died from neck injuries using a harness but no Hans.

- however, we are driving sevens so if we have a heavy impact (+45mph) then we should remember the driver is the airbag installed in the crumple zone. Neck injuries may be the least of our problems when we use a harness. A harness may be preferable to the DOT 3 pointers, especially if the car rolls.

- so it depends on a lot of variables.

- Hans was designed specifically for a 3 inch harness. So it makes sense a Hans is not recommended for a 2 inch harness.

- in most states it is illegal to wear a helmet on the street so you cannot use a Hans. It is in NJ, ask me how I know.

- just to make it more complex, at one point Caterham were recommending you not use 3 inch harnesses without chassis mount modifications (need to move the shoulder mounts out to give parallel upper belt alignment). At another time there was guidance on not using Hans for the same reason. Not sure that still applies as I have not checked in a while.

- Hans is not the only restraint out there. Simpson have some very good options plus there are others. Each has their own requirements as to belts.

 

I bet I have listed something which is contradicted by one study somewhere, illustrating the difficulties in getting clear guidance on something like a Seven.

 

It’s complicated and I am not sure there is a clear cut path to the right decision (at least not to my mind). It is good that we think through the topic and make our own educated decisions. I think it is good you raised the topic for discussion.

 

So we all have to apply our judgement to assess the compromises needed to make a decision on our own safety equipment.

 

Sevens are immensely strong vehicles and I really like the idea of relying on active safety to keep out of danger.

[Pokey]

I got the Caterham Schroth belts directly from Caterham. They are Schroth Formula 2X2. Six point harnesses. Two inch shoulder straps with pull down tighteners. I believe Caterham throws in the necessary 7 specific hardware. Key thing to know is that the crotch straps do not have male fasteners that plug into the cam lock. Instead, they have loops. The loop on the end of each crotch strap goes through a loop on the end of each lap strap. The shoulder strap goes through the loop on the end of the crotch strap and is then inserted into the cam buckle. Be aware of this feature/flaw before you buy them. I would much prefer a metal tab to insert into the cam lock over the loops as it would be easier to deal with.

 

Mine are labeled as FIA certified through 2025.

 

Here's the link.

 

Interesting. I have the four-point harness that came with the kit, and just received the crutch straps to make six points. Unfortunately they are not FIA labeled, but one would hope that the differ from the manufacturer's (Luke) version only by that label. These have the tab for inserting into the cam lock.

[Pokey]

There are a quite few studies out there, with some conflicting results, including some that are self serving “marketing studies”.

 

From reading them over time, my observations:

 

- it depends on what car you are driving

- legally we should not be using harnesses on the street. We should be using DOT three pointers. These give a little in an impact and therefore presumably ease the trauma on your neck being flung forward.

- harnesses hold you firmly and so the head is pretty much the only thing fling forward in an impact situation. The example is Dale Earnhardt. He died from neck injuries using a harness but no Hans.

- however, we are driving sevens so if we have a heavy impact (+45mph) then we should remember the driver is the airbag installed in the crumple zone. Neck injuries may be the least of our problems when we use a harness. A harness may be preferable to the DOT 3 pointers, especially if the car rolls.

- so it depends on a lot of variables.

- Hans was designed specifically for a 3 inch harness. So it makes sense a Hans is not recommended for a 2 inch harness.

- in most states it is illegal to wear a helmet on the street so you cannot use a Hans. It is in NJ, ask me how I know.

- just to make it more complex, at one point Caterham were recommending you not use 3 inch harnesses without chassis mount modifications (need to move the shoulder mounts out to give parallel upper belt alignment). At another time there was guidance on not using Hans for the same reason. Not sure that still applies as I have not checked in a while.

- Hans is not the only restraint out there. Simpson have some very good options plus there are others. Each has their own requirements as to belts.

 

I bet I have listed something which is contradicted by one study somewhere, illustrating the difficulties in getting clear guidance on something like a Seven.

 

It’s complicated and I am not sure there is a clear cut path to the right decision (at least not to my mind). It is good that we think through the topic and make our own educated decisions. I think it is good you raised the topic for discussion.

 

So we all have to apply our judgement to assess the compromises needed to make a decision on our own safety equipment.

 

Sevens are immensely strong vehicles and I really like the idea of relying on active safety to keep out of danger.

 

Thanks Mike, this is a topic I've been looking into of late primarily because the four-point doesn't fit my petite wife as tight as I would like so I was debating replacing with the three point or adding crutch straps. I know the latter must feel like a silly overkill for road use, but the composite seats are slick and I'm more concerned about her slipping under than other (horrible) alternatives so opted for the six points. I still need to deal with the sloppy fit of the shoulder straps, so if anyone has any great ideas I'm all ears. Perhaps just adding padding to the straps, or maybe putting the passenger seat on the adjustable rails like the driver side so she can move a little forward and take up the slack?

[Croc]

Perhaps just adding padding to the straps, or maybe putting the passenger seat on the adjustable rails like the driver side so she can move a little forward and take up the slack?

 

I like that idea of the seat being on tracks. Also, you can buy shoulder pads for the belts - a bunch of places sell them, I just picked the first search item to link.

 

https://www.demon-tweeks.com/us/caterham-harness-pads-241857/

 

 

However, the tillets are slippery and even I find I slip with a 4 point belt using them. A crutch strap really is the only way to stop the submarining problem.

[DatsunRBZ]

How are you all running the crutch straps on standard cloth Caterham seats with no cut out in the seat? Do you have to modify the seat or are you sitting on the belts? Did you install new anchors for the crutch strap or run them to the lap belt anchors? I know a nice set of carbon Tillets would fix this problem but sadly those will remain on the wish list.

[Croc]

Sit on belts. The seat base lifts up, pull the belts through and replace base. No seat mods needed. I used this way for years without an issue.

 

Crutch belts should be bolted to chassis frame at rear firewall. Not the same mount points as the lap belts.

[TheDingo8MyBaby]

Crutch belts should be bolted to chassis frame at rear firewall. Not the same mount points as the lap belts.

 

Just a note (so as not to confuse someone and probably doesn't apply to @DatsunBRZ), if using the formula type 6 point belts, the anti-sub belts can be mounted on the same location the lap belts. In my S2, I sit in more of a reclined position (partially to get my helmet under the roll bar) and run the formula style belts mount where the lap belts. I also run 2" shoulder harnesses and Croc's conclusions are the exact ones I've come to.

[BlueBDA]

Same way I use the crutch (crotch?) straps.

 

Sit on belts. The seat base lifts up, pull the belts through and replace base. No seat mods needed. I used this way for years without an issue.

 

Crutch belts should be bolted to chassis frame at rear firewall. Not the same mount points as the lap belts.

[SanderGA]

Do you drive on the street? I believe 2" shoulder belts are not recommended to be used without a HANS device.

 

It's a 1,300 pound, 30 inch high, 200+ hp car without airbags, doors a roof or NHTSA safety testing in a world full of 5,000 pound SUVs. Whether the shoulder straps are two inches wide or three inches wide is well down my list of concerns. In fact, I can't even say it's on my list of concerns.

Edited August 26, 2020 by SanderGA

[SanderGA]

Interesting. I have the four-point harness that came with the kit, and just received the crutch straps to make six points. Unfortunately they are not FIA labeled, but one would hope that the differ from the manufacturer's (Luke) version only by that label. These have the tab for inserting into the cam lock.

 

My car has the set-up you described. I believe the Luke/Caterham four points were added around 2008 and the original owner added the crotch strap later. The crotch strap is clearly newer than the four-point harness. That set does have an expiration date which is around 2012 as I recall. I'm replacing them because I want a set with a current date and the old ones are pretty oily and will deposit oily dirt on anything I'm wearing when I strap in.