2021 Caterham CSR "CatKong"

[Croc]

That looks like a camshaft position sensor at the back of the cam cover. Does your ECU not require that input? Will a shorter sensor with a shorter mount be on the new cam cover?

 

Sorry, may have confused things. The ECU will require the input but you can get low rise sensors and side mounts. My current 2.3L Caterham has a side mount connection off the cam cover.

[rdhunt1]

NA 2.5L at 134hp/L...sweet! Cant wait to hear it at full song!

 

NA 333hp in my pals stock z4m is a treat. I cant even fathom with 1/3 the weight!

[Bruce K]

Fantastic work, Croc, and a completely gorgeous car. I apologize - I would not have PM'd you for info if I had known about this thread. Your detailed explications have provided me with additional choices for my forthcoming Seven - thanks for that. I simply cannot make this ANOTHER multi-year project, so a Cat that I can upgrade to 2.5 liters or a stock 620R are now my primary choices. Best of luck with this trailblazing venture - to be able to accurately state that your (anything) is among the (any ultimate quality) in the world is an amazing accomplishment in 2021. This is a Caterham to drive into the cloud tops of Mount Olympus - congratulations!

Edited January 17, 2021 by Bruce K

[Croc]

I apologize - I would not have PM'd you for info if I had known about this thread.

 

No apology needed. I share to save someone the pain of reinventing the wheel plus I like the idea of you also going bonkers like me! :jester:

[TurboWood]

Very impressive! You are making a beast for sure. I would love to see the dyno plot.

 

I’m surprised you needed to upgrade the fuel system. Was this a precaution or a know limit?

 

Daniel

[Bruce K]

On 1/17/2021 at 2:23 AM, Bruce K said:

Fantastic work, Croc, and a completely gorgeous car. I apologize - I would not have PM'd you for info if I had known about this thread. Your detailed explications have provided me with additional choices for my forthcoming Seven - thanks for that. I simply cannot make this ANOTHER multi-year project, so a Cat that I can upgrade to 2.5 liters or a stock 620R are now my primary choices. Best of luck with this trailblazing venture - to be able to accurately state that your (anything) is among the (any ultimate quality) in the world is an amazing accomplishment in 2021. This is a Caterham to drive into the cloud tops of Mount Olympus - congratulations!

Croc (my wife often calls me by your nom de plume, with a couple added words referencing a jar or vessel full of expletive deleted):  I continue to maintain the "WCM & Other Super Seven Repair & Update Manual".  I have done so reflexively, always believing the next Super Seven is around the corner.  But I am now contemplating a radical turn (not Radical).  One of my hundreds of searches turned up a Lola T70 Spyder Mk I continuation.  It has a similar triangulated steel space frame, assembled with aluminum panels into a monocoque like the original, but connected with screws plus modern adhesive unavailable to Lola engineers at the time.  The car also has smaller fuel pods on either side, which allows a wider cockpit, so both seats in this car are adequately sized, and spaced a suitable distance apart.  Additionally, the steel frame, aluminum panels and suspension components contain additional metal, rendering the car a bit heavier, but also more rigid and better suited for street use.  Otherwise, the car is largely indistinguishable from original Mk I Spyders:  The nose is ex-works, the rest of the body panels are heritage, the steering wheel is Montmorency, Smith's gauges, center-nut pin-drive wheels, Hypercision 6-liter bowtie V8 with quad Weber 2-barrels, Willens harnesses, original Lola ceramic badges - the list goes on.  Fortunately for me, the car also has a low roll cage (removable side bars), a fire system, logbooks, and qualifies for vintage racing. - never been there, want to do that. 

 

The looks sold me on the car.  From my point of view, Eric Broadley's Lola T70 Spyder Mk I & II deserves mention with any of history's great sports car designs - right up there with the Tipo 33 Stradale, the Ferrari 250 GTO & the XKE.  Seguing back to Sevens, this T70 is comparable to a Stallker XL - similar power and brakes, a bit more weight but better aero, conventional outboard coilovers, but shielded from turbulence by that lovely Lola nose.  The mid-rear engine placement should cede handling to the Lola.

 

So - if I succumb to this particular form of automotive heresy, can I retain my USA7's participating member status?  Or do I have to install cycle fenders and Brooklands windscreens?

 

(I did not provide an image of the actual car, as the purchase is still ongoing.  Looks the same except for livery and LHD:)

[Croc]

4 hours ago, TurboWood said:

I’m surprised you needed to upgrade the fuel system. Was this a precaution or a know limit?

 

Daniel

 

 

@TurboWood Hi Daniel - Bruce B and I were on the same mind as this - it was not even a point of discussion.  The standard Caterham fuel pump on a CSR 260 is somewhat marginal.  It comes off a P-O-S Rover with a with a 1.4L engine.  Details here:

Caterham CSR260 Fuel Pump - General Tech - USA7s

 

It was never designed for the higher hp application in a 2.3L CSR 260 and with the upsize to a 2.5L and substantially more hp, an upgrade was always on the cards.  

 

I have never checked if the 620R uses the same pump, my bet is not.  

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Bruce K said:

Croc (my wife often calls me by your nom de plume, with a couple added words referencing a jar or vessel full of expletive deleted)...  

 

So - if I succumb to this particular form of automotive heresy, can I retain my USA7's participating member status?  Or do I have to install cycle fenders and Brooklands windscreens?

 

@Bruce K Hi Bruce - Consider being called by nom de plume, a sign of flattery.  

 

You can always stay a USA7s member with a Lola T-70.  Ownership of a T-70 demonstrates style, panache, and above all, good taste in automotive equipment.   A 6L V8 will grow hair on your chest amongst other bodily places.  And I would also point out that you will have an aeroscreen installed, equal to a Brooklands in my book.    

 

This is a whole another world of fast, even based on your car history listed in your signature.  It will be your fastest car ever, not as much aero as it needs and brakes will need some care.   I will be interested to hear your reactions after a proper drive!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[panamericano]

Holy sit!  Go for it.

[TurboWood]

On 5/16/2021 at 1:49 AM, Croc said:

 

 

@TurboWood Hi Daniel - Bruce B and I were on the same mind as this - it was not even a point of discussion.  The standard Caterham fuel pump on a CSR 260 is somewhat marginal.  It comes off a P-O-S Rover with a with a 1.4L engine.  Details here:

Caterham CSR260 Fuel Pump - General Tech - USA7s

 

It was never designed for the higher hp application in a 2.3L CSR 260 and with the upsize to a 2.5L and substantially more hp, an upgrade was always on the cards.  

 

I have never checked if the 620R uses the same pump, my bet is not.  

 

Mike,

Thanks for the reply and fuel pump info! Would you mind sharing some more information about the upgrade you made? While I've lived with the stock pump at similar power levels, the time at those flow rates has been limited so an upgrade is likely in my future.

 

Similarly, I'm curious about the differential support. Does your new CSR still use the Sierra diff? This is my biggest concern for going with stickier rubber since my peak TQ is well over 300ft*lbs. If the tires stick in a low gear I should be able to rip it apart (thankfully (?) my tires can't even handle 3rd gear WOT). 

 

Daniel

[Bruce K]

On 5/16/2021 at 4:49 AM, Croc said:

 

@Bruce K Hi Bruce - Consider being called by nom de plume, a sign of flattery.  

 

You can always stay a USA7s member with a Lola T-70.  Ownership of a T-70 demonstrates style, panache, and above all, good taste in automotive equipment.   A 6L V8 will grow hair on your chest amongst other bodily places.  And I would also point out that you will have an aeroscreen installed, equal to a Brooklands in my book.    

 

This is a whole another world of fast, even based on your car history listed in your signature.  It will be your fastest car ever, not as much aero as it needs and brakes will need some care.   I will be interested to hear your reactions after a proper drive!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the well-spoken endorsement.  And if that 6 liter is successful in sodding the top of my head, my next car will be a Bugatti.

 

In a straight line, and up to 100 or so, the Lola can't be much quicker than many Stalkers.  The mid-rear engine configuration will improve traction, just as it has with the C8 'Vette, but many Stalkers are rolling around with cubes and power to match (even exceed) Can-Am cars of the sixties.  Most Bruntons weigh a few hundred pounds less than my Lola, which is heavier than stock (works T70's and Bruntons are about equal in weight at around 1,800 lbs.)  It's after 100 where differences will be exposed.  My Lola will achieve higher top speeds, and reach them faster, while generating greater cornering forces.  That is, I think, the performance quadrant from whence hair-growing will arise.  I promise to stay within my limits.  And add dive planes.

 

Vis-a-vis brakes:  Works T70's employed Girlings with discs slightly inboard of the uprights.  This resulted in cooler brakes, cooler tires and more consistent tire pressures.  John Surtees' was instrumental in the adoption of this solution.  Moving the discs a bit inboard while not increasing weight, however, yielded a somewhat complex and delicate architecture.  Sometime in 1965, at Mosport, while testing a T70, the disintegration of a hub carrier at speed nearly cost Surtees his life.  The car veered and tumbled, and ended up on top of Surtees, pinning him face-first into the outfield sand with gas draining everywhere.  Quick-witted corner workers saved John, who went on, in the next 12 months, to win 5 of 6 races and the inaugural Can-Am championship!  The mettle of men like Surtees is grist for another complete exigesis.  I'll conclude by noting that my car employs more efficient and modern AP brakes, surrounded by heavier a-arms and links, positioned for better durability inside the wheel drum.  

 

Oddly, I am looking forward to driving this car on the street as much as on the track.  It will not have the cat-like reflexes of a Caterham, with that featherweight steering and ability to move with your thoughts.  I imagine a heavier version of a Cat - perhaps a lynx, or a lion.  Still unimaginably maneuverable, still impossibly strong, just a tad more ponderous.  I've enjoyed years where I've accumulated 5,000 miles driving my Sevens - and I live in Michigan!  Driving a smooth back road, on a warm sunny day, in a topless Seven - that's a feeling like you could lean back and drive right up into the clouds.  I can't wait to experience that again.  Guaranteed my road miles will be seven to one over my track miles.

 

The development of the car will be fun and interesting.  There are likely fewer than 500 original and continuation T70's ever built (my considered estimate).  They are important, championship-winning cars, but there is no Lola forum out there on the web.  Perhaps I should start a forum page here - what do you think?   Presuming, of course, my deal goes through and I can complete the purchase.

 

(Images of stock works inboard Girling disc brakes versus conventional outboard AP disc brakes, as fitted to my car. Note the ducted fresh air provided to the latter, and unnecessary for the former:) 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Bruce K

[Kitcat]

BruceK: I have been reading car magazine writers struggle for the words to capture the se7en driving experience forever. Some of the greatest auto-scribes have done their best to put it into words. No one has done better than your comment about a warm, sunny, top-down day in a se7en : "....that's a feeling like you could lean back and drive right up into into the clouds."  I wouldn't be surprised if I start to see that in future descriptions (including my own:)).

[Bruce K]

Very kind, Kitcat.  Thanks so much.  And imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, so you are welcome to use my words anywhere.

[Croc]

On 5/18/2021 at 6:48 PM, TurboWood said:

 

Mike,

Thanks for the reply and fuel pump info! Would you mind sharing some more information about the upgrade you made? While I've lived with the stock pump at similar power levels, the time at those flow rates has been limited so an upgrade is likely in my future.

 

Similarly, I'm curious about the differential support. Does your new CSR still use the Sierra diff? This is my biggest concern for going with stickier rubber since my peak TQ is well over 300ft*lbs. If the tires stick in a low gear I should be able to rip it apart (thankfully (?) my tires can't even handle 3rd gear WOT). 

 

Daniel

 

Hi Daniel @TurboWood

 

I don't have the specs of what Bruce has done with the fuel pump sorry.  Hopefully he will chime in here.  He would have a readymade solution for the fuel pump based on some of his other customer cars.  

 

The diff support or the diff itself?  The CSR diff is now held in a cage like structure that is and integral part of the chassis. Previously, like my 2010 chassis CSR, it was a 2 point brace which was upgraded to include the extra 2 race struts.  That works well but you always have to check torque on the bolts as part of the annual spanner check since they like to come undone.  

 

The CatKong diff is a sierra housing but with Tracsport internals.  Great company in the UK.  The internals can handle the power.  Quite a few Caterham owners on USA7s have bought from Tracsport over the years - I have never heard of a problem.    

 

 

 

[TurboWood]

Mike,

Tracsport is great, they built my transmission. I’m glad to hear the Sierra diff has some strength, and I guess it’s time for me to check some bolts!

 

Good luck on the new build.

 

Daniel

[Croc]

An update on progress.   Bruce at Beachman Racing has been producing reluctor wheels.  What are these?  Well, they are the metal tooths/cog wheels that allow sensors to measure wheel speed.  A Caterham has a reluctor on the rear axle with teeth for a hall effect sensor to read road speed for the speedo.  Owners will be familiar with the frustrations of perfectly placing the sensors close enough to read road speed accurately.  

 

Custom reluctors are needed on CatKong, in addition to the standard road speed one that comes standard, as we need to measure relative wheel speed on each individual wheel as part of an input to the ECU's traction control (or launch control) or braking input.  As readers will recall, the ECU on CatKong is a significantly upgraded unit with full OBDII capabilities which we are going to make use of.  

 

Process was to CAD model the required reluctor wheel design - different for the front wheels from the rear wheels - then 3D mill it out back to the required state.  

 

Front wheel reluctors

 

 

 

See how neatly it sits within the front brake disk?  Very professional looking result.  

 

 

 

Rear Wheel Reluctor - This was a different design as it had to mount to the drive shaft

 

 

 

Next step for Bruce is sorting out a mount for the sensors to read the reluctor "teeth".  An illustration of the locational thinking below.

 

 

[Bruce K]

Remarkable, both the minutiae and the substantial departures that Beachman Racing and yourself have wreaked upon this incredible car.  You remind me of Bill Fink, fitting monster LS1's and dozer Tremec trannies into the antiquated engine bays of long door classic Morgans.  Bill's installations looked like factory jobs, and, indeed, Bill communicated closely with the factory and shared his improvements.  His upgrades led to future changes in the Morgan line, including BMW V8 and Ford V6 motors, greatly strengthened frames and suspension enhancements.  Are you communicating with the factory regarding your Cat Kong project?  You should - you might improve the breed for all of us!  And, who knows - they might sponsor some of your work, or pick up Beachman's reluctors.  Anything they do for you will be a lot cheaper than running a Formula 1 team or co-developing the sister car to the Renault Alpine!

[924s]

I am upgrading to a Carter rotary fuel pump.  https://www.racetep.com/manufacturer/carbs-and-injection/weber/electric-fuel-pumps.html

[924s]

On 5/19/2021 at 5:38 AM, Kitcat said:

BruceK: I have been reading car magazine writers struggle for the words to capture the se7en driving experience forever. Some of the greatest auto-scribes have done their best to put it into words. No one has done better than your comment about a warm, sunny, top-down day in a se7en : "....that's a feeling like you could lean back and drive right up into into the clouds."  I wouldn't be surprised if I start to see that in future descriptions (including my own:)).

A friend of mine has a Porsche 359 spider kit car, his take on this is when he is driving down a back country road he can imagine he is driving at Le Mans. The 7 is even more of an F2 driving experience on the street.

[Rosteri]

I just came across this thread - this is going to be a brilliant spec, please post as many details as possible on the Sadev and shift setup...! 

 

[TurboWood]

Update time! The peanut gallery is getting impatient.