7 Owners in the Bay Area / San Jose?

[hahuang65]

Hello, I'm Howard. I'm looking to be a Caterham owner sometime in the next year or two.

 

I'm looking for someone who might be generous with their time and would let me just take a look around their Caterham, and talk about their car. I've contacted Rich Kamp from Kampena Motors in Sonoma, and he's been enormously helpful, but it's difficult to chat over email and I feel bad taking up his time especially if I'm not putting a downpayment right away for a reservation slow. Also, Sonoma is quite far for me to get up to with 2 young children in the house.

 

I'm looking to buy a 420/620 and am curious about the differences between the models, as well as the differences between the S and R, and would love to get some real peoples opinions. I understand the differences on paper, but having a conversation with someone can sometimes really yield some insightful details that spec sheets don't really get into.

 

I'm in San Jose, and I've actually seen a Caterham driving around town on Almaden Expressway.

 

Thank you for your time!

[TheDingo8MyBaby]

Hi Howard, 

 

I am in San Jose (Willow Glen), but I own a modified 1963 Lotus Seven and it probably won't be very representative of a 420/620. I'm happy to show you the car if you like.

 

I'm aware of two other Caterhams in san jose: one a highly spec'd (R500ish) duratec of @Sean. The other is a SVT zetec powered car, but is not running right now. 

 

@KnifeySpoony I think has a 420R in the bay area, but I'm not sure where he's at. 

 

You may also want to try talking to Josh Robbins of rocky mountain Caterham. I believe he has at least one customer in San Jose. 

 

-Geoff

 

 

[KnifeySpoony]

. Model differences as well as S/R differences are shows on Caterham's site and configurator. Go the the UK page and play with their configurator to see all the options. One big difference between 420 and 620 is that 620 is factory-build only, so if you want to build (as I did) then 620 is off the table. Also 620 is RHD drive only.

 

I am in Newark. If you want to do a test fit, I'm happy to oblige. 

[sltous]

I have one of the Cosworth Duratec/R500ish on a 2005 S3 Superlight R chassis in the greater Mountain View area.  My experience as a novice track driver at Sonoma was that I got to around 80-85% throttle at most and in street driving I of course use considerably less.  I am hoping to make it to Loma Mar Store this Sunday if you want to take a look.

 

My experience with Rich at Kampena Motors has been excellent and I am very happy to recommend our local Caterham dealer.  He typically has a number of the cars in his shop in Sonoma and can show you the nuances.  I know he has a 280R and a 310S if you want to see the R pack and S pack differences.

[hahuang65]

@TheDingo8MyBabythanks for the response. I actually drive thru Willow Glen daily, so I may take you up on your offer if only to just chat and meet a fellow enthusiast. I understand your car won't be representative of what I'm looking for, but I'll bet you still have a lot of useful knowledge that might be helpful to me as I make my decision!

 

Was there any specific reason you recommend Rocky Mountain Caterham over our "local-ish" Kampena Motors?

Edited September 26, 2022 by hahuang65
Additional question

[hahuang65]

@KnifeySpoonyyeah, I would LOVE to build, and that's a part of my decision, although a smaller part as my time building will be a lot less than my time owning/driving.

I suspect the 420 is much more car than I need, but there's that itch to just go for the top tier.

 

I understand the spec differences between the 420 and the 620, but I was wondering if there were any reasons besides building that swayed you to the 420?

Also how did you decide between the S and R pack?

 

I'm on the fence about RHD... part of me thinks it would be interesting, part of me things it will be a pain after a while. Any takes on this?

[hahuang65]

@sltousthat's good to know. I know that the R500 sits somewhere between the 420 and the 620 performance-wise... but I'm unfamiliar with what your car is. Is it aftermarket modded, or did you buy it as a Cosworth Duratec? 

 

Did you get it originally thru Rich?

 

I missed Loma Mar Store and I'm not sure what that is, but I would LOVE to talk to you more about your car as well!

 

I'm in the same boat with my current car, I have a 2019 WRX STI, and I really don't even get close to using it at full potential on the street. The 620 and probably even the 420 are going to be much more car than I (or anyone) really needs... but there's just that itch to get the best possible, you know what I mean?

[KnifeySpoony]

1 hour ago, hahuang65 said:

@KnifeySpoonyyeah, I would LOVE to build, and that's a part of my decision, although a smaller part as my time building will be a lot less than my time owning/driving.

I suspect the 420 is much more car than I need, but there's that itch to just go for the top tier.

 

I understand the spec differences between the 420 and the 620, but I was wondering if there were any reasons besides building that swayed you to the 420?

Also how did you decide between the S and R pack?

 

I'm on the fence about RHD... part of me thinks it would be interesting, part of me things it will be a pain after a while. Any takes on this?

re: 420 vs 620 - other than the ability to build it (which was a big priority), I am not a fan of the response of forced induction engines. Also, supercharger heat soak is a power killer on a track-driven car, which is my car's main purpose. So the hottest naturally aspirated version was the most appealing to me. If you want a stoplight-to-stoplight or onramp champ, then the 620 is surely the way to go. From what I read, many people with a 620 find it frightening to drive, as it so easily overwhelms traction. It's not for beginners. Remember unlike all the other high HP cars out there today, a 7 has no nannies...

 

re: S vs R pack - I think the most important part of the R pack is the LSD - IMO it's a mandatory feature for any moderately powerful seven. Driving a 7 with the throttle is a big part of the experience, and it's just not the same with an open diff.  Of course, other R pack components are also worthwhile additions for a car that will be driven hard or near/at the limit. If you plan on having a cruiser, that will be street driven at no more than 7/10ths, then S pack may be more appropriate. If you intend to track the car, then it's an easy decision. A 7 is a surprisingly capable and performant car. Even a 420 is very quick at legal speeds (before hitting aero drag) and can easily overwhelm its rear tires in a curve in 3rd gear. If you intend to really explore its performance capabilities, you will need to go to a track. Only much more powerful or serious machinery can keep up with a well driven 420 on track.

[Vovchandr]

7 hours ago, KnifeySpoony said:

re: 420 vs 620 - other than the ability to build it (which was a big priority), I am not a fan of the response of forced induction engines

 

You think it's an issue even on supercharged engines? Power is instant/constant and linear?

[JohnCh]

There is a significant performance gap between the 420 and 620 models.  Whereas the 420 has a noticeable 17% power increase over the 360, the 620 has 48% more power than the 420.  That's not exactly a step change, and as @KnifeySpoony noted, the 420 is already something that needs to be treated with respect in a corner, while the 620 is...well, on another level.  As a 620 owner recently said to me "it's always trying to kill you."  Only you know your experience levels with very high horsepower RWD cars and how much you like a car that has the power to bite quickly.  This may be exactly what you want.  Or it may not.

 

Other things to consider about the 620: the supercharger adds weight, complexity, under bonnet heat, has a well-documented overcooling issue that requires an aftermarket solution to fix, there is no self-build option, it's a lot more expensive, and is RHD.  Again, these may all be non-issues for you given the power increase and your preferences.  Or they may not.

 

S vs. R.  To me this isn't a do you/don't you want to track it decision, but more about what you want in the driving experience.  I don't track mine, but I like a very, very visceral experience when I take the car out to play and am happy to make compromises most people think are nuts.  So for me, things like the more stripped out interior, composite seats that lock you in place, updated brake MC with improved feel, lighter flywheel, and LSD all take the experience in my preferred direction.  How far down that visceral and less compromising path do you wish to travel? 

 

Bottom line all the cars are great, but absent the ability to drive all the variations back-to-back you need to rely on your ability to ask yourself the right questions and provide honest answers.  This thread and your desire to have conversations with owners is a great approach to uncovering those answers.

 

-John

[KnifeySpoony]

3 hours ago, Vovchandr said:

 

You think it's an issue even on supercharged engines? Power is instant/constant and linear?

Yes - caveat is that my experience is only with roots-style blowers, I've never driven a centrifugal. Although the torque delivery is linear; ie there isn't a high boost threshold like there is with some turbo setups, there IS boost lag like with a turbo, albeit limited. You don't get that instantaneous throttle response that you get with a well -tuned NA motor. With a roots blower, boost is bypassed with closed/neutral throttle, and there is a delay until it builds pressure when mashing the gas. It's small, and many people don't even notice it. They're great for street cars IMO. But for me there is nothing like the instant hit from an NA motor, especially one with ITBs. 

[hahuang65]

This is a good point @KnifeySpoony. I've only had "performance" cars with turbos.

 

I Did have a Lexus IS250 that was NA but I hardly did much enthusiastic driving with it.

 

Wife's XC90 is twincharged... So I really have no experience with NA or Supercharged. Now I'm in even more of a dilemma hahaha. 

[Croc]

I think the question for Howard @hahuang65 is what is your intended usage?  Is it canyon carving?  Is it pure track day weapon?  Is it pootling around Santa Monica looking for an ice cream.  The model you choose should fit the purpose you intend.  

 

I have driven all the models in the Caterham range over the years.  I own a 420R plus a CSR260 and I lived with a 620R for a week in Spain and Portugal (look for the article section on this site) plus have driven it on track more than a few times since.  Here's how I would fit the models to an intended purpose:

 

420R - you want the R model just for the LSD and uprated brake MC alone.  The ride is a little more crisp in its precision without giving anything away on ride comfort.  This is (in my view) the sweet spot of the Caterham range where it has the max power the chassis can really handle in a road environment plus enough oomph to embarrass bigger cars on a track.  Any more hp and you lose your license plus the limits of the De Dion chassis become evident - it cannot put the power down.   The gearbox is the 5 speed Miata where 5th is an overdrive.  Its perfect for the road.   On track with my 420R I find it is a 2 gear car - 3rd and 4th - in nearly all circuits.   The only circuit it is not is Spa-Francorchamps where I need to be above 115mph before I can use it (Vmax on that circuit is around 128mph).  The 2L Duratec is a good engine - it revs and revs and works well for the purpose.

 

620R - If you want to have a track beast off the shelf then this is it.  The big "IF" is the rear end cannot handle the torque - the supercharger spooling up always breaks things loose.  It needs the stickiest tires to handle the rear end.  The Sadev sequential is awesome - buttery smooth click shifts.  It has the top end speed to take it to most cars on track.  I remember doing 145mph down the main straight at Hungaraoing in a 620R.  Fastest I have ever been in a Caterham.  The heat soak is a major issue - I melted my race boot soles and burned the soles of my feet in Spain.  But that engine, slicing up the gears in a full bore run - intoxicating.  Its not automatically the quickest around a race circuit.  I have video (article on this site) from 2019 at Anglesey where I am in my 420R chasing a friend in a 620R on track and while I would never be able to pass I could hang with with him.   Similar thing happened at Oulton Park 3 weeks back - the circuit was too bumpy for the 620R to get any advantage over a 420R. They boogie off in a straight line but I can catch a 620R under brakes (higher top speed requires earlier braking) and could be a lot more aggressive on the throttle in exiting corners.  But all these track advantages make it a pain for the road - sequential gearbox, traction is marginal, first gear is fast enough to lose your license, etc.  I get high HP is sexy but it makes no sense as a road car unless you are doing triple digit speed.  Its brilliant in the right application. 

 

So - what is your planned type of usage?  

 

 

[hahuang65]

@JohnCh@Croc you guys bring up good questions I need to ask myself. Most of them I already have comments on, but don't yet know my final decision.

 

For me, this car would be my fun car. Let me explain that a little bit. We have 2 children under 3 right now... my wife has an XC90 that'll be our family car. I have a 2019 STI that I bought new and has served me well as a family/dad car that I daily. I can do most things in it even with 2 kids, and am planning to keep that forever, and have it become a project whenever the engine blows.

 

The Caterham will be my daily with the STI, in the sense that, if I need more capacity, I will take the STI, otherwise, I'll always take the Caterham. I live in San Jose, and so weather isn't much of an issue. Maybe hot days will be unbearable in the Caterham though.

 

I'm not one to shy away from putting miles on a car, and so I'll take the Caterham to do kid pickup (once they're old enough), or groceries, or whatever errands.

 

I live 40 minutes away from Laguna Seca, so I ALSO want it to be my track car. Being a busy father has kept me from taking the STI even once, even though I've been itching to do so since I got the car... so take this statement with a grain of salt. I INTEND to go, might never make it.

 

@JohnChbrings up a good point in asking how visceral I want it. I got the STI over the M3 exactly for this reason. The M3 was too nice. I'm having a hard time deciding between the S vs R MOSTLY for transmission. The sequential sounds like it'll be great, but I do like to row my own gears, so I really don't know where to land on that one. I know that if I get the R, I will most definitely option the windscreen, doors, and roof, vs going that tiny carbon flap thingy (not sure what it's called). But I am also getting up there in age, so I'm not too sure about the light flywheel and the seats in particular.

 

The 420 will undoubtedly be enough car for me and my skills, but given that Caterham likely will be changing their lineup because of the UK ICE sales ban in 2030, and FOMO lol... should I get the 620 for "future-proofing"? It is a dream to get better at driving, and work my way up to a 620... so would I get a 620 now and work my way up, or get a 420 and trade up when I'm ready? Money is always a concern, but it's not a HUGE concern here.

 

I do drive barefoot/slippers a lot, so that statement about the heatsoak burning your feet is a little alarming.

 

I guess the big question is, will the 620 be too boring to drive around town, given how limiting you have to be with it? I'm a pretty reserved driver around town, and usually I don't even really rev out the STI. I get beat by Corollas and minivans ALL the time, so I wouldn't say that I'm afraid of driving more reservedly... but I also don't want a car that'll never leave 1st gear in town.

[JohnCh]

If someone hired me to choose your car based on everything you've written thus far plus my own experience over the past 20 years of se7en ownership with power levels ranging from 120hp-225hp and having driven cars with 265hp and 275hp, I'd order you a 420R with the swappable windscreen/aeroscreen option.  You'd have the Miata 5-speed, plenty of power (0-60mph is claimed under 4 seconds), it's easy to drive around town and is still a weapon on track. More power is also available down the road.  RB or ITBs reportedly add about 10hp, and if you open up the engine, changing rods, pistons, cams, plus head work or a head swap can increase that by an additional 20-40hp. 

 

We need to find you a passenger ride in a 420 so you can experience that power level yourself to determine how it compares to your expectations.  You might be underwhelmed...or you might be a little frightened  

 

-John

[KnifeySpoony]

I'm fairly certain I could scare the shit out of him in boring-old 200whp 420. Come to Sonoma 10/15 if you want a ride along...

[hahuang65]

6 minutes ago, KnifeySpoony said:

I'm fairly certain I could scare the shit out of him in boring-old 200whp 420. Come to Sonoma 10/15 if you want a ride along...

That sounds awesome, and thanks for the offer. Unfortunately, weekends are a hard no for me. Wife would kill me leaving her with 2 kids just to do car stuff.

I was planning to pay Rich Kamp a visit sometime in October on a weekday, will be taking a day off work to do a Napa/Sonoma date trip with the wife and check out some cars while I'm up there!

 

What's uncertain is whether he'll have what I'm looking to compare.

 

Any chance I could pay you a visit in Newark during a workweek? 

[KnifeySpoony]

Yes, I can show you the car on a weekend evening. But unfortunately there's nowhere to drive around where I live.

[KnifeySpoony]

oh I might also be at Sonoma 10/6 if you can make that (a thursday)

[Vovchandr]

If I were you I'd do 420 R with aero and option in sequential if you can. 

 

My car with the Zetec was very peppy with it's "200hp package" that I found out dynoed 130 some after fixing some issues. 

 

Now it's plenty peppy with 130hp and it's sequential and a blast to drive. 

 

While I still strive for more I'm very happy with what it has now. 200 wheel is likely max id ever want. Unfortunately for me it will likely take forced induction to get there.