Vovchandr Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 @Bruce K Quote This is silly. Your comparison was clearly intended to be demeaning to me, while I clearly intended to posit a compliment to Croc. Croc is a very popular figure with the Seven community, and he deserves it, because he is a leader who volunteers a lot of his time to important pursuits within the community. Those qualities were the basis of my comparison of Croc to Trump, and that was obvious. For anyone, in response, to compare me to both a mass murderer and a child rapist is not only uncouth, but asymmetrical and unrelated to this issue. It's my complement. I'm posing, in my mind, a clearly favorable comparison to a historical figure and another very passionate one who was very driven by his passion and hobbies. Saddam was a great leader who did a lot for the Iraqi economy, energy industries and infrastructure. But this stuff about being uncouth? You'd have to grind my comments into fine powder and place them in an "uncouth" cookie cutter for them to have any resemblance of being "uncouth". For being compared to strong leader and a passionate hobbyist (Saddam Hussein & Earl Brian Bradley), I believe a simple thank you will suffice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 On 7/22/2010 at 3:51 PM, powderbrake said: So far the usa7s forum has been unique in it's high character, lack of name calling, minimum number of fights and put downs, and people seem to be friends. I believe the PRC section may damage that status. Lets leave the "off topic" and Political stuff to the other places on the internet, where they can draw the kind of people who enjoy controversy and irritating their fellow members. Let's continue to discuss Sevens, and avoid pushing each other's Hot Button This type of section can get pretty rough, and it is a constant problem for the moderators, who have their hands full as is. NEW TOPIC: I inadvertently cranked the tail of a hibernating bear when I penned the following intended compliment in the Sevens for Sale thread: "Croc - good to see your Seven market postings are back. You are the Donald Trump of the Seven community - we've all been waiting for you to return and restore order to a confused marketplace, to help buyers get the most product for their money, and to read more of the savage honesty dipped in wit that has been a Croc trademark for years." I am truly amazed at the number of people who are deeply insulted by this remark. One member, in reaction, compared me to a mass murderer and a child rapist! Such overreactions are both uncouth and asymmetrical to the issue. The new issue becomes: Is modern dialectic even possible? Can we attempt compliments? If a compliment draws such reactions, how will be ever criticize, which is so necessary in the pursuit of truth? Can we pursue truth together any longer? The most appropriate response by all parties disliking my compliment would have been a request to compare Croc to someone else, which I readily accept. But the reactions I received put proof to snowflake arguments. And "snowflake" does not properly describe the damage that thin skin does to public discourse. Here was my response to the worst of the replies: This is silly. Your comparison was clearly intended to be demeaning to me, while I clearly intended to posit a compliment to Croc. Croc is a very popular figure with the Seven community, and he deserves it, because he is a leader who volunteers a lot of his time to important pursuits within the community. Those qualities were the basis of my comparison of Croc to Trump, and that was obvious. For anyone, in response, to compare me to both a mass murderer and a child rapist is not only uncouth, but asymmetrical and unrelated to this issue." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnCh Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 I merged Bruce's post above into this thread for two reasons: @Vovchandr started it before Bruce posted Bruce placed his post in an old thread about starting a Politics, Religion, and Controversey forum, not as a new thread in that forum. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbox Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 On 1/16/2024 at 4:37 PM, Bruce K said: I am truly amazed at the number of people who are deeply insulted by this remark. Seriously? You compared someone who is universally respected on this forum to the most controversial figure of the modern era, and you were surprised people took issue with it? Seriously? On 1/16/2024 at 4:37 PM, Bruce K said: One member, in reaction, compared me to a mass murderer and a child rapist! Yes, and they did so to make a point that you somehow continue to miss. Comparisons to controversial figures are not universal compliments. Trump is also a rapist, after all. On 1/16/2024 at 4:37 PM, Bruce K said: Is modern dialectic even possible? Can we attempt compliments? If a compliment draws such reactions, how will be ever criticize, which is so necessary in the pursuit of truth? Can we pursue truth together any longer? Don't be so hyperbolic. You attempted a compliment. It was met with criticism. Welcome to discourse with a diverse group of people. The sky is not falling. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IamScotticus Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) This is now the most popular thread on the forum Hey,Croc, can you get some adds on here? OK, I'll play...nicely. So a lot of people don't like DJT. A lot of Republicans don't like DJT. Consider popular past presidents, or political figures over 150 years ago, say, George Washington or Teddy Roosevelt, or anyone on Mount Rushmore, or even the unpopular ones like Grover Cleveland, and many others. All we know about them is what was recorded in the papers, writings, maybe some folklore. Certainly not the vast muntia of personal details that are routinely, ruthlessly and irresponsibly exposed on today's mass media. I propose that any of the greatest men in past, if were subject to today's scrutiny wouldn't just have mud on their walls, but mudslides. It is also very possible that many of the most least popular men, political and performance failures, if throughly scrutinized, would be found to be very morally respectable men. I understand Jimmy Carter was such a man. We alll know about that presidency record. But what do people know about Jimmy Carter, the person? It all just shows that the job of the presidency and the climb to the top isn't for everyone. It takes a personality, a skill set, and a team to get there and do well in that office. Unfortunately, the nice guys don't seem to do very well. Its very alarming to those who think about it, and to people all over the world, that the leader of the most powerful economic power house and commander of the most formidable and advanced intel, military, and possibly reverse-engineered ET technology(1), Is someone most people choose based on what they see on TV. (1) The jury is still out on that one, but I believe the Gov't likes to tease it up. Edited January 22 by IamScotticus 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 (edited) 3 hours ago, barbox said: Seriously? You compared someone who is universally respected on this forum to the most controversial figure of the modern era, and you were surprised people took issue with it? Seriously? Yes, and they did so to make a point that you somehow continue to miss. Comparisons to controversial figures are not universal compliments. Trump is also a rapist, after all. Don't be so hyperbolic. You attempted a compliment. It was met with criticism. Welcome to discourse with a diverse group of people. The sky is not falling. @Vovchandr , @barbox and @IamScotticus: RE: Paragraph one - Anyone running for president becomes controversial, a point eloquently explicated by Iamscotticus. The context of my post made clear my intention: To tender a compliment. To receive, in response, scurrilous retorts comparing me, and by inference Trump, to mass murderers and child molesters is unconscionable. A simple request to employ a different comparison would have been adequate. Though I support Trump as the best available answer to our country's severe problems, my purpose was never political and I will not defend him here. I will say this much: Within my longest memory, neither Trump nor I ever came close to hitting anyone, let alone murdering them, and neither of us have any interest in sexual liasons with children. Vovchandr's retort was so assymetric and extreme, it seems more an attempt at speech suppression than an attempt to improve my post. RE: Paragraph two - I stated in a much earlier post that I would gladly have changed my simile, if requested. I never had the chance. No requests for edit were tendered , and with a few exceptions from defenders of civil speech, respondents primarily engaged in silly grade-school putdowns. Respondents like Vovchandr better stay away from paper and other sharp objects, given the thinness of their skin. RE: Paragraph three - Criticism is not only acceptable, but welcome from civil people. What I received instead was invective. Meaningful criticism requires a full understanding of the subject matter, which, in my case, must include the purpose of my comments. Though it can be thematically scalding, proper criticism is also logical and civil. The offending retorts were the opposite: blatant attempts to insult, which I, as a long-standing contributor to this forum, find offensive. Edited January 22 by Bruce K Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barbox Posted January 22 Share Posted January 22 @Bruce K is the intent of the author of a compliment the only element that matters, or does how the reader receives it also matter? As you said in this post, your comparison to Trump was intended to be about his leadership qualities, not any of the negative connotations one might take from such a comparison. But, Vovchandr has also said they intended their comparison to be about the leadership and passion-for-hobbies qualities of those individuals, not the negative aspects you refer to. And yet, you were offended by what they said, just like Croc (and many others) found your compliment to be an insult. The only difference between the two is that you're inferring Vovchandr's intent to be to insult and offend, while no one's really debating the intent of your compliment. But, it's clear Vovchandr's intent was neither to insult nor to compliment, but rather to illustrate the point that the intent of a compliment is not the only thing that matters. Also, there's no need to exaggerate the facts here. You keep using plural words to refer to "the offending retorts" when it was but a single response. You refer to it as a "silly grade-school putdown" when there was no name-calling or other child-like immaturity in their words. And you claim "I would gladly have changed my simile, if requested. I never had the chance." despite the fact that the very first response civilly asserted that the comparison is not the compliment you think it is (that was your first chance), or that Croc himself said he viewed it as "a definite insult" (that was your second chance), or that you still have the ongoing opportunity to change it (this was and continues to be your third chance). And you claim others are the ones with thin skin 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted January 22 Author Share Posted January 22 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bruce K said: @Vovchandr , @barbox and @IamScotticus: RE: Paragraph one - Anyone running for president becomes controversial, a point eloquently explicated by Iamscotticus. The context of my post made clear my intention: To tender a compliment. To receive, in response, scurrilous retorts comparing me, and by inference Trump, to mass murderers and child molesters is unconscionable. A simple request to employ a different comparison would have been adequate. Though I support Trump as the best available answer to our country's severe problems, my purpose was never political and I will not defend him here. I will say this much: Within my longest memory, neither Trump nor I ever came close to hitting anyone, let alone murdering them, and neither of us have any interest in sexual liasons with children. Vovchandr's retort was so assymetric and extreme, it seems more an attempt at speech suppression than an attempt to improve my post. RE: Paragraph two - I stated in a much earlier post that I would gladly have changed my simile, if requested. I never had the chance. No requests for edit were tendered , and with a few exceptions from defenders of civil speech, respondents primarily engaged in silly grade-school putdowns. Respondents like Vovchandr better stay away from paper and other sharp objects, given the thinness of their skin. RE: Paragraph three - Criticism is not only acceptable, but welcome from civil people. What I received instead was invective. Meaningful criticism requires a full understanding of the subject matter, which, in my case, must include the purpose of my comments. Though it can be thematically scalding, proper criticism is also logical and civil. The offending retorts were the opposite: blatant attempts to insult, which I, as a long-standing contributor to this forum, find offensive. Why are you telling me I have thin skin? I haven't complained about anything other than the fact that you freaked out at my compliment like a "snowflake" as some people like to refer to such. Snowflakes are typically known for finding simple language "offensive". Its unusual to be offended by a compliment however. You don't think Croc should have been and I don't think you should have been. If you're having trouble finding parallels in this discussion, I'd suggest a new prescription. I personally think a snowflake is a complement too, they are beautiful and whimsical. I don't know where you're going off with these wild accusations, context of my post is clear, to tender a complement by selecting two people with strong attributes of passion and leadership. I've never seen somebody display as much passion as you with the award winning Caterham you used to have, which you've posted the beloved pictures of a number of times. For the record, Trump is responsible for plenty of decision that ended in death as commander in chief and being a friend of Epstien and calling him a great man isn't exactly a good look in regards to pedophilia, not to mention his questionable actions and words to his own daughter when she was underage and his alleged accusations for the beauty competition walking in on them undressed and unannounced. Why are you telling me to stay away from things? Are you suppressing my freedom of speech??? Edited January 22 by Vovchandr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 I think we all need to take a step back. I have calmed down. I can see Bruce did not intend to insult me. It was just unfortunate bad luck that he scored a direct hit on one of my triggers about an individual I have had negative close interaction with plus I was at the end of a very rough work day. I could quite happily sit down with Bruce and share a drink or 5 and have a laugh about the whole thing now. No damage is done - to me anyway. While I am known to frequently call a spade a c@#$ and gained viral industry recognition in my field of expertise for the most uses of the word f%$@ in a single email, I even promise to not call him Hillary. So if I can do that, can the rest of you? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wdb Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 Sir Edmund is blushing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Croc Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 1 hour ago, wdb said: Sir Edmund is blushing. Off topic - I did meet him and his son at Lukla Airport in Nepal something like 30 years ago. Our plane to Kathmandu had been cancelled (it had crashed on its previous landing at Kathmandu Airport). Wonderful man. Did so much for charity over the years. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pethier Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 There is another car forum that has a section for politics. I studiously avoid that section. I do not want to know the political views of people I meet on car fora. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 4 minutes ago, pethier said: There is another car forum that has a section for politics. I studiously avoid that section. I do not want to know the political views of people I meet on car fora. This is less politics and more nuance of understanding how a) Freedom of speech works and b) Consequences of your words not being perceived as you intended and being more mindful of language use with that in mind. With a slight hint of irony of 1) Being outraged at the fact that people to read into their "compliment" too much, while 2) At the same time , without skipping a beat, being outraged themselves at a "compliment" they got by reading into it too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 @Vovchandr - your remarks were doubly offending because I have personally spoken to you before, and enjoyed pleasant conversations. I am upset because of the extremely rude similes you proposed, linking me, and Trump by inference, to a decades-long mass murderer and a prolific child abuser. Whatever you think of Trump, he has never been anything related to your hyperbolic references. All that was required was to request that I please choose a different person for comparison. It was evident that I regard Trump highly, and intended a compliment, as noted by Croc. There was no symmetry in your response. It was an extreme reaction - extremely rude, and inappropriate to employ vis-à-vis an individual who has been uniformly polite and helpful on this forum. @pethier - I agree with you, and I do not discuss politics in this forum. My remark was intended as an apolitical compliment, utilizing a strong leader as the basis of the simile. The extreme response I received is related to negative impressions various forum members have formed of Trump, which remains their right in a country becoming less classically liberal every week. My only objection to all the diatribes I received is that bad manners were unnecessary and were counterproductive - a simple request to alter my compliment would have been appropriate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 5 minutes ago, Bruce K said: @Vovchandr - your remarks were doubly offending because I have personally spoken to you before, and enjoyed pleasant conversations. I am upset because of the extremely rude similes you proposed, linking me, and Trump by inference, to a decades-long mass murderer and a prolific child abuser. Whatever you think of Trump, he has never been anything related to your hyperbolic references. All that was required was to request that I please choose a different person for comparison. It was evident that I regard Trump highly, and intended a compliment, as noted by Croc. There was no symmetry in your response. It was an extreme reaction - extremely rude, and inappropriate to employ vis-à-vis an individual who has been uniformly polite and helpful on this forum. @pethier - I agree with you, and I do not discuss politics in this forum. My remark was intended as an apolitical compliment, utilizing a strong leader as the basis of the simile. The extreme response I received is related to negative impressions various forum members have formed of Trump, which remains their right in a country becoming less classically liberal every week. My only objection to all the diatribes I received is that bad manners were unnecessary and were counterproductive - a simple request to alter my compliment would have been appropriate. @Bruce K Just because "you don't think this is the compliment I think it is", you need to see that these are "my compliments" and I never referenced anything negative and are indeed "favorable". I highlighted the positive qualities I think you or anybody else should be proud of to have regardless of the source. After all "we need free speech to be truly free, not contorted into attacks." Right? How can people go around and be offended while "free speech, thats truly free" exists? What kind of liberal paradise do you want this to be? As far as Trump, I think you missed the point where I highlighted that there are quite a number of parallels between both sexual abuser and responsible for deaths of people as part of being a strong leader and commander in chief requires. You're blaming us for you not altering the compliment? My very first reply was a hint that you should change it. You doubled down. Others have said you should change it. You stuck to it. Croc has said "That is a definite insult" and you STILL didn't change your simile. You own this, don't try to brush it off on others as their responsibility especially when it was clearly indicated that your comment isn't "the compliment you think it is". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 23 Share Posted January 23 @Vovchandr - at first, I thought you guys were joking - I couldn't imagine offense being taken from my remark. Continued polite insistence, clear and simple, would have convinced me. I will not own responsibility for your rude, scurrilous rejoinders - your lack of manners is entirely upon you and a few others. I needed a little convincing, which I have duly received, but without the positive consequences that normally flow with correction. And even if I proved unwilling to change my remarks - which is not the case - they did not deserve your responses. Civil discourse should never include such over-the-top and insulting hyperboles. Because you continue to defend your open and obvious insults, directed to both myself and Trump, I can only conclude that you are as ill-mannered as you sound, and no friend of mine. Regarding your "parallels", they are so unreasonable and overdrawn as to invite sarcasm - like comparing the launch of a kite to the launch of a moon probe. As noted above, what bothers me is that you intended the insult. Thank you, Croc, for recognizing that I had no intention to insult you or anyone else. I should not have chosen a politician or person of controversy as basis for my simile. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 Wow for a guy that demands respectful conversation you have made a number of personal attacks on me as a person while I have done nothing but give you compliments AND for a guy that loves to defend "freedom of speech" [on a private non government forum??] you love to tell others how they should speak. (Pick a lane here...) You don't seem to like my compliments and chose bad things from those people. I have never mentioned anything but positive attributes of passion and leadership, everything else is your words reading into the persona, not my compliment. My parallels are factual. Just because you close your eyes and claim that it's dark outside because you don't see the light, doesn't change the fact that it's daylight outside. Let's keep moving goal posts. "It's not an insult!!!" - Croc says it's a definite insult "You guys should have told me to change!!!" - 3 people have told you to change "I thought you guys were joking!!!" -...... You're right, you "couldnt imagine" comparing somebody to a very controversial figure as a compliment being taken as anything but one. Sympathy and empathy require imagination of putting yourself in other person shoes. You "couldn't imagine" that when you said what you said. However a good example is when somebody forced you into those shoes and you no longer had to "imagine" anything, now you lived it and guess what? You discovered how horrible it can be to be compared to somebody controversial even if they say that you should pick the best qualities of that controversial person! "Oh my". You certainly didn't seem to like it. There I saved you from having to try to use imagination and brought a horse to water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted January 23 Author Share Posted January 23 (edited) Just so we are clear on the goal posts This sounded like a joke to you??? On 1/16/2024 at 1:05 AM, Cueball1 said: To much of the membership here, myself included, calling Croc Trump is about as big an insult to Croc as you can get. It's hard to imagine a more polarizing or controversial person you could have used where Croc is universally loved and appreciated! To me it certainly reads like "polite insistence, clear and simple" Edited January 23 by Vovchandr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce K Posted January 24 Share Posted January 24 @Vovchandr - I don't care how many novels you write in attempted explanation - nothing can change the fact that your comparisons were intentionally insulting and inappropriate. Even if unacceptable to you, I made my comparisons with good intentions, and obviously so. Your comparison of both myself and Trump to mega-killer Saddam Hussein and a certain serial child abuser were unwarranted and asymmetric - I bumped you, so you put a bullet in me. Remember - my compliment was a mistake - no harm intended. On the other hand, your insults were purposed to harm, to the greatest extent effectuable by words alone, and you have not retracted them. Your actions are not consistent with those of a gentleman, or a classical liberal, and I will neither read nor respond to anything more from you unless it includes an apology. This forum should not be about asymmetric responses to perceived insults. Croc, at significant personal expense, keeps us posted on the North American Seven market every week. John and others keep this site running while receiving little to no compensation. I am the author of the 200+ page "WCM S2K and Other Sevens Repair and Upgrade Manual", which helps the 90 or so owners of S2Ks keep them on the road, and is located in this forum's downloadable library. These sorts of activities, provided with the friendliest of intentions, should be the hallmark of this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vovchandr Posted January 24 Author Share Posted January 24 Wait so your compliments should be judged on YOUR INTENT only but my compliments should be judged on PERCEPTION? but not my intent? This is preposterously unfair. I've stated over and over again my positive intention just like you stated yours. Either yours can be judged upon reception and then so can be mine or BOTH will be judged on INTENT only. You can't have it both ways, but you certainly are trying hard to. And it's not novels, it's me quoting you and calling you out on your own words which you do not back up or stand by. So I state again. Pick a lane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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