Tariffs

[Frankie]

I ordered a new oil gauge for my 7 from Rocky Mountain Caterham. .  My grievance is what happened to the price when it arrived.  The original cost of the gauge was $175.00. When it arrived with the added tariff cost of $55.00, the shipping cost to me was another $12.00. My $175.00 cost ended up being $242.00!  I'm not besmirching Rocky Mountain Caterham, they are a fantastic company and they need to make a profit.

This is not a rant but it should be.  Be aware of the new tariffs. 

[MV8]

What was the advantage to ordering from the dealer's website instead of directly from Cat's website?

[Xhilr8n]

I brought this reality of Trumpthink up with a dinner partner last evening.

 

And he responded

 

“Why can’t we make those here?”

 

And,

 

“People with cars like that can afford whatever they cost”.

 

And,

 

“Americans should not have cars like that”. (he drives a Bimmer)

 

And

 

”The company that makes it should pay the tariff”

 

That was all I could take.  I operated a small company fourty years and there is not that sort of profit.  Geeezzz a lot of the time you’re just hoping to pay employees 

 

So it turns out we are the bad guys.  Shame on us.

 

Going to be quite interesting to see if these folks keep the same tune when Reality settles to their home and wallet.

[mrmustang]

Democrat, Republican, left, right, center, it does not matter, and for those that think it does, you've been drinking too much of your particular parties koolaid, believing what is being reported, instead of actually going out and reading what is on paper on the subject

 

Short term the tariffs are going to hurt, no ifs and/or buts about it.

 

If allowed after the lawsuits (after reading over 1,000 pages of them, some are shaky at best), they will help the country in the long run.

 

Will there be a new normal, yes, but nothing like what could happen on the flip side if we go back to the way it was. Will prices go up, sure, but not as severely as they had over the past 3-4 years. Sure, short term things will be fine, but 3-8 years from now, not only will inflation rear it's ugly head in a big way, but the term people will be using will not be recession but depression. Think otherwise, read the actual lawsuit paperwork, the arguments being submitted back and forth, and unless you only have half a brain, you'll figure it out for yourself.

 

 

[demoray]

Have you read the tariff paperwork?  Multiple lawyers I've interacted from both sides of the pond are struggling to understand how things fall out.  It's an inconsistent, complicated, and fluctuating mess.

[Vovchandr]

4 hours ago, mrmustang said:

Think otherwise, read the actual lawsuit paperwork, the arguments being submitted back and forth, and unless you only have half a brain, you'll figure it out for yourself.

 

Not getting into much of a debate on anything else but this statement rubs me the wrong way. We used to rely on expertise of others who were proven as competent by their own peers to have educated opinions based on their experiences in the field. 

 

Now people are starting to value their opinion not just as much as the experts but they value their own opinions and conclusions on stuff we know nothing about above experts in the field. Not to mention paid mouth pieces that help people sway their opinions so nobody truly is unbiased in their choice. 

 

The lawyers have a saying that a lawyer that chooses to represent themselves has an idiot for a client. 

 

Don't even get me started on self assigned titles the likes of "law abiding citizens" which aren't worth putting more then 3 seconds of consideration for value. 

Edited September 22 by Vovchandr

[Xhilr8n]

Tariffs were never about money anyway.  It’s about him wanting to have the illusion of power.  Wanting the whole world to know he can flip a Tariff on you in a wink for any reason.

[mrmustang]

1 minute ago, Vovchandr said:

 

Not getting into much of a debate on anything else but this statement rubs me the wrong way. We used to rely on expertise of others who were proven as competent by their own peers to have educated opinions based on their experiences in the field. 

 

Now people are starting to value their opinion not just as much as the experts but they value their own opinions and conclusions on stuff we know nothing about above experts in the field. Not to mention paid mouth pieces that help people sway their opinions so nobody truly is unbiased in their choice. 

 

The lawyers have a saying that a lawyer that chooses to represent themselves has an idiot for a client. 

 

Don't even get me started on self assigned titles the likes of "law abiding citizens" which aren't worth putting more then 3 seconds of consideration for value. 

In retrospect I was harsh with my response,and I humbly apologize for it, truly I do. I guess for me, after spending days going through as much as my aging mind could handle with all of the countless lawsuits brought by people not driven 100% by the business aspect, but partially due to politics, or politicians feeding their frenzy. We can't get away from it, I wish we all could, but we as a country are in such a divided way, and we need to take a step back from the cliff we are all headed towards. Why are we being driven there, and who will gain the most by dividing us all the way to a non physical civil war. I used to use the term united we stand, divide we fail. Forget the two major political parties for a moment, or the ideological stances within the multitude of factions of them, then ask yourself who wants us to fail the most, and why? Wish I had a qualified answer that would cover it all, but I don't, and I'm not one to deal in conspiracy theory, but it's just not right what is going on in our country, or even with our allies across the ocean. We are all being torn apart, threatened if you like, from the inside out.

 

I wish everyone well, and again, ask for forgiveness from my harsh attitude above.

 

Bill

[theDreamer]

5 hours ago, mrmustang said:

Democrat, Republican, left, right, center, it does not matter, and for those that think it does, you've been drinking too much of your particular parties koolaid, believing what is being reported, instead of actually going out and reading what is on paper on the subject

 

Short term the tariffs are going to hurt, no ifs and/or buts about it.

 

If allowed after the lawsuits (after reading over 1,000 pages of them, some are shaky at best), they will help the country in the long run.

 

Will there be a new normal, yes, but nothing like what could happen on the flip side if we go back to the way it was. Will prices go up, sure, but not as severely as they had over the past 3-4 years. Sure, short term things will be fine, but 3-8 years from now, not only will inflation rear it's ugly head in a big way, but the term people will be using will not be recession but depression. Think otherwise, read the actual lawsuit paperwork, the arguments being submitted back and forth, and unless you only have half a brain, you'll figure it out for yourself.

 

 

I have unfriended or stopped all contact with blood relatives, relatives through marriage, close friends and mere acquaintances because they insist on taking every opportunity to spew the lies and misinformation coming from the present US government. I can think for myself. I can do my own research. Most importantly I tend to believe my own eyes and ears.

With regard to Trump’s tariffs, Reuters is a trusted source for unbiased news and information. Well known for its commitment to accuracy and reliability. Reuter’s financial journalists and the analysts they have interviewed have proven over and over that the math just doesn’t work and never will. Even if the present government was doing everything else correctly (and it is not) the tariffs are so hap hazard, on today off tomorrow, signed in to law without any thought to implementation etc. The figures used to chart one week are useless the next because what is covered and the percentages charged are in constant flux.

If you chose to believe things will be better for your country in the long run with these huge, illegal tariffs than I will accept that as your opinion.

I will in turn respectfully disagree.

[theDreamer]

43 minutes ago, mrmustang said:

In retrospect I was harsh with my response,and I humbly apologize for it, truly I do. I guess for me, after spending days going through as much as my aging mind could handle with all of the countless lawsuits brought by people not driven 100% by the business aspect, but partially due to politics, or politicians feeding their frenzy. We can't get away from it, I wish we all could, but we as a country are in such a divided way, and we need to take a step back from the cliff we are all headed towards. Why are we being driven there, and who will gain the most by dividing us all the way to a non physical civil war. I used to use the term united we stand, divide we fail. Forget the two major political parties for a moment, or the ideological stances within the multitude of factions of them, then ask yourself who wants us to fail the most, and why? Wish I had a qualified answer that would cover it all, but I don't, and I'm not one to deal in conspiracy theory, but it's just not right what is going on in our country, or even with our allies across the ocean. We are all being torn apart, threatened if you like, from the inside out.

 

I wish everyone well, and again, ask for forgiveness from my harsh attitude above.

 

Bill

Bill, I’m not sure what sparked your first post but obviously between writing that and the one you just posted you have had a change of heart. Or at the very least have re-examined your position.

Yes, these are frustrating, anxiety inducing times. I am sorry to be the one to break it to you but your own countrymen (and women) are the ones who have brought your country to the brink. I’d like to think a nonviolent solution will be the outcome but… January the 6^th has proven that there are those who want just that, a very violent conclusion.

Also, as much as you’d like to think this situation is not political the truth is, it is TOTALLY political.

[IamScotticus]

The tariff program is being executed about as well as the Afghanistan withdrawal program.

 

Edited September 22 by IamScotticus

[Xhilr8n]

Well we’ve got our interpretations and opinions out.  I see this site’s role in this is just to clearly document real life experiences as Frankie has.  Facts not opinions.

[IamScotticus]

Tariffs 101.

An American wants to make doo-hickies.  After tooling, materials,  labor, insurances,  taxes, certificates and compliance, leases, build-out costs, loan interest, adversising, warehouseing, whatever, the cost per doo-hickie is $1.00.  Consumers will buy other doo-hickies at $2.00, not a penny more, the value isn't there.  A 50% production cost is not sustainable.  You're out of business on paper before you ever break ground. 

 

A foerigner in a far-away land is able to make comparable doo-hickies for the equivalent of .10 cents apiece and import them into the USA at a tariff rate of 3%, enabling him to sell doo-hickies at $2.00 and make a substantial profit.

 

Therefore,  what Americans have done is to contract manufacturing of doo-hickies to producers in foreign lands and import them to the USA to sell, or have the materials imported duty free and manufactured into whole products in foerign trade zones.

 

Furthermore,  even if the American can make doo-hickies for $1.00 apiece here, and wanted to sell them in foerign markets,  those countries often have 20-40% tariff rates, therefore he is unable to manufacture in USA and sell to foerigners either.

 

When you see all the foreign made products on store shelves,  it's not because companies can't find USA workers to do those jobs,  it's because regulation and costs in USA are too high and prohibitive to compete against the foerign importer taking advantage low production costs in his country and a low USA importation tariff rate.

 

Tariffs are used, or should be used, to raise the foerigner's costs so the domestic producer can compete and has a shot at success.  Once all the domestic support for doo-hickie making and selling is lost, it takes a long time to build it back.

 

Since Americans are happy paying $2.00, or less, for a foreign made doo-hickie,

 

 

Edited September 22 by IamScotticus

[Xhilr8n]

19 minutes ago, IamScotticus said:

Tariffs 101.

An American wants to make doo-hickies.  After tooling, materials,  labor, insurances,  taxes, certificates and compliance, leases, build-out costs, loan interest, adversising, warehouseing, whatever, the cost per doo-hickie is $1.00.  Consumers will buy other doo-hickies at $2.00, not a penny more, the value isn't there.  A 50% production cost is not sustainable.  You're out of business on paper before you ever break ground. 

 

A foerigner in a far-away land is able to make comparable doo-hickies for the equivalent of .10 cents apiece and import them into the USA at a tariff rate of 3%, enabling him to sell doo-hickies at $2.00 and make a substantial profit.

 

Therefore,  what Americans have done is to contract manufacturing of doo-hickies to producers in foreign lands and import them to the USA to sell, or have the materials imported duty free and manufactured into whole products in foerign trade zones.

 

Furthermore,  even if the American can make doo-hickies for $1.00 apiece here, and wanted to sell them in foerign markets,  those countries often have 20-40% tariff rates, therefore he is unable to manufacture in USA and sell to foerigners either.

 

When you see all the foreign made products on store shelves,  it's not because companies can't find USA workers to do those jobs,  it's because regulation and costs in USA are too high and prohibitive to compete against the foerign importer taking advantage low production costs in his country and a low USA importation tariff rate.

 

Tariffs are used, or should be used, to raise the foerigner's costs so the domestic producer can compete and has a shot at success.  Once all the domestic support for doo-hickie making and selling is lost, it takes a long time to build it back.

 

Since Americans are happy paying $2.00, or less, for a foreign made doo-hickie,

 

 

 

It’s even better than that.

 

Sure we got less expensive stuff, but we have other important gains by exporting production.

 

We did not bear the pollution inherent in industry.  The mountains and lakes of toxic wastes are not here.

 

But the most important thing is this.  The great achievment of my parents generation was educating their children so they did not have to do mill work.

 

There is hope, of sorts.  By reducing education and instilling more poverty, we can control inflation and have a supply of hungry people to do these sort of jobs.  Great again.

 

 

[mrmustang]

7 hours ago, IamScotticus said:

Tariffs 101.

An American wants to make doo-hickies.  After tooling, materials,  labor, insurances,  taxes, certificates and compliance, leases, build-out costs, loan interest, adversising, warehouseing, whatever, the cost per doo-hickie is $1.00.  Consumers will buy other doo-hickies at $2.00, not a penny more, the value isn't there.  A 50% production cost is not sustainable.  You're out of business on paper before you ever break ground. 

 

A foerigner in a far-away land is able to make comparable doo-hickies for the equivalent of .10 cents apiece and import them into the USA at a tariff rate of 3%, enabling him to sell doo-hickies at $2.00 and make a substantial profit.

 

Therefore,  what Americans have done is to contract manufacturing of doo-hickies to producers in foreign lands and import them to the USA to sell, or have the materials imported duty free and manufactured into whole products in foerign trade zones.

 

Furthermore,  even if the American can make doo-hickies for $1.00 apiece here, and wanted to sell them in foerign markets,  those countries often have 20-40% tariff rates, therefore he is unable to manufacture in USA and sell to foerigners either.

 

When you see all the foreign made products on store shelves,  it's not because companies can't find USA workers to do those jobs,  it's because regulation and costs in USA are too high and prohibitive to compete against the foerign importer taking advantage low production costs in his country and a low USA importation tariff rate.

 

Tariffs are used, or should be used, to raise the foerigner's costs so the domestic producer can compete and has a shot at success.  Once all the domestic support for doo-hickie making and selling is lost, it takes a long time to build it back.

 

Since Americans are happy paying $2.00, or less, for a foreign made doo-hickie,

 

 

I dislike when I get involved in political style debates, as my mind wanders and the posts above get made. While I may not agree with what others are saying or posting, I never draw a line is civil discussion. 

 

With that said

 

 

I prefer what it takes to make $1.00 widgets (abbreviated list below)

Bank loans

Design and engineering

Purchase of property in which to build the assembly plant to make them

Kickbacks and graft to grease the wheels so we can get approval for the building

Kickbacks to certain organizations so that we can have the labor and suppliers to clear, prep, and build out so we have someplace to build the widgets

Utilities

The design and purchase of specialty equipment to build the widgets

Hiring and training the workforce to build the widgets

Insurance to cover the workforce who will be building the widgets

Insurance to cover the building/equipment/property in case something bad should befall the widget manufacturing plant or employees

Sales force to sell the widgets so we can pay back the enormous initial investment to open the doors in the first place

Taxes, let's not forget the taxes being paid out, property, sales, infrastructure, employment, all before you have turned the lights on to make your widgets 

 

Or

 

You could give up your rights to make the widgets and license it to an offshore company to make the widgets for you, but get caught paying import tariffs.

 

As someone who has developed/owned commercial property, I can tell you in the short term the last line above this one sounds awful tempting, but in reality, the longer description above is the smarter choice. The trick of course is to convince others that in the long game, having a pay off date, and then owning the property (IE: added value) outright is the smarter play.

 

Bill

 

PS: My posts above are both pre and post libation enhanced, only I know which is which  

 

PSS: Screw civil discourse, I'm taking my Caterham out as soon as the tree guys finish cutting the tree down this AM

 

Edited September 22 by mrmustang

[IamScotticus]

Yes, environmental pollution Is a horrible thing and should be prevented.  It takes a worldwide effort to curtail it.

 

This topic should have been made in the political and controversy forum.

The Mod, @JohnChshould move it there 

Edited September 22 by IamScotticus

[JohnCh]

 

22 minutes ago, IamScotticus said:

This topic should have been made in the political and controversy forum.

The Mod, @JohnChshould move it there 

 

I didn't see the need to announce that it was moved given the links and notifications automatically forward:

 

 

[speedwagon]

I was born before "pearl harbor", was taught to read by my immigrant mother before 5, was working part time on the family farm by 5, was an entrepreneur before the teen years, 4 years in the military, worked in the physics industry, and was an electrical contractor. Also a reasonably successful investor (recognized Enron as a ponzi scheme while it was still a "reputable corp.".  You?we are all right.  After WW2 we as a nation were on the top of the heap, we had the highest Gross National Product of any nation in the world!  The USA exported more than it imported and most of the advancements and inventions were made here. Money was being made, small manufacturing companies were scattered all over, it was "paradise".  The war effort caused all this to be. Then came the profit taking years, with more successful companies buying out their competition or somehow running them out of business things became cutthroat, even small tradesmen started using lesser quality parts and material and that led to trying to reduce the cost of labor even more. We all started buying imported stuff of lessor Quality because we could afford it more easy. soon we found that we were buying transistor radios (using US developed technology) made in Japan, and accepting the fact that it wasn't worth fixing them. so just throw them away when they quit. Now every person's goal is to become rich in a short period by servicing (lets use the farmer's definition)  the public. Meanwhile the former third world countries have improved their quality to the point that it exceeds ours, and we have no export markets for our over priced substandard products.  YES a tariff will not fix that (just male it worse), but instead it will raise the foreign presumed value of their products and if the tariff is removed the value is establish and that will still be the cost to us.  I am/was a patriot and partisan, and do believe the the current procedures are wrong both realistically and morally.   But the problem lays with "we the people" and a political solution will only solve a small part. We the people need to unite (as we did in WW2) and find the things that will rectify part of our problem. (not likely)  and  finally what is wrong with buying a far better quality, far cheaper electric auto from China if they were actually our friend. (but we bought nothing from either Japan or Germany when they were not. At any tariff.   Sorry for the long wind.  you may freely cuss me.

[Xhilr8n]

Very well written speedwagon.  A lot of us here identify. 

[Vovchandr]

Yes that was very well written.

 

I want to reiterate that if properly carried out the discussion here can be very civil and educational. The comment from @speedwagon is not a perspective I'd get anywhere else in my life on the regular basis.

 

I come from the opposite spectrum. Not only I'm one of the youngest here, but I'm certainly one of the newest to USA from the youngsters (came here in 2000) so my perspective is pretty much from 9/11 on but I also have memories and families in Russia for that view point. 

 

To me America is a service, consumer and technology economy. Farming is ever present and is an important but difficult balance in a global economy where all goods are technically equal. Milk is milk. Chicken is chicken and rice is rice. If the same thing can be grown in two competing countries it can certainly be important to make sure your country's goods have priority.

Barring farming Americans establish trends, make entertainment (Hollywood) and employ a huge amount of service workers and many of us start out in that field in our careers living that miserable life that teaches us that a large portion of people are just plain selfish a-holes. "Approximately 79% of the US workforce is employed in the services sector" - source google search.

 

What I gathered while living here is that Capitalism is god and shall not be questioned. If its cheaper to make things overseas, than "thats the rules" and all chachkis are made in China and so all the call centers go to India. Stocks must go up and that shall not be questioned. I always found it amazing that things can cost $4 to be manufactured and to get to my door from China but when I try to ship the same thing to next town over it will cost me $10 just to ship the item, not even counting the cost of making it and profit built into it. Insanity but hey "thats the rules" that support the capitalism/consumer economy. 

 

The nuance that Capitalism is dependent on people and government providing manpower and infrastructure is often lost on people who pray to the Capitalist gods. Amazon cannot exist with just Bezos being his own boss and paving his own roads to drive his own trucks and China making most of his goods, yet it is deemed that he owes nothing back to society on which his empire is built. 

 

I digress.

 

As of right now the recent year is reminding me more and more of living in Russia from firsthand experience and I don't like it. This is not the America I came to in 2000's and its becoming harder and harder to tell differences. I don't like the military parade like we had there. I dont like rouge police/government forces stopping people on streets like we had there. I don't like our president to be a multi billionaire like we had there. I dont like him having his own press channels like we had there. I can go on with recent similarities. 

 

On average people are happier because they have more stuff thats for sure.

Edited September 22 by Vovchandr