Possible new series 2 owner, with lots of questions

[randomDMZ]

Hey guys, I have the opportunity to purchase a 1965 series 2 that means restoration. I've always loved the look and feel of all the seven cars, and I even owned a berry mini t dune buggy that looks similar. 

But I'm going to be honest with you I'm lost. So I guess I'll just ask away. 

The chassis number on the car U1148. And the car comes with no title. The component data plate looks like it has some numbers scratched in it sb11 is all I can read. What the scratches look like kids scratches. Can anyone help me with any information on this chassis? 

Next, is it sacrilege to change the color? Currently the car is red, and aluminum. I really really want a gunmetal gray and black car. But I don't know if this is considered bad, and if it'll hurt the value or the historical significance. Just not a red and silver fan. Plus I would like to powder coat the frame.

Next, where is a good resource for obtaining parts? I'm told the car has an upgraded 1.2 l engine but I don't really know much beyond that. 

Lastly, is there a way to track down the original title and or history of the owner if there ever was one? 

Thank you guys for your time and I hope you guys can help me out. I'm really hoping this project turns out awesome.

 

[Croc]

 

Congratulations on your first post at USA7s!

 

Sounds like you found a basket case.  

 

First thing is are you really looking at a Lotus 7 Series 2?  Replica plates are cheap and lots of people put them on cars that look like but are not true Lotus 7s.  Factory records are not great.  Unless you can score a hit from the numbers on the plate you have or find it on a DMV website then you may never know its history.  You may determine it is likely a Series 2 by photos of the chassis, suspension, etc but that is not absolute proof without the provenance/history.  Lots of claimed Lotus 7 end up being 1970s or 80s Caterhams for example.  In this situation buy at the right price and know what the likely exit Market price after restoration is going to be - there is not a lot of headroom in these cars to invest money and get it back.

 

If you feel comfortable - post photos here in case someone recognizes the car or can determine its origin.  

 

Forget the color issue.  You likely have Grandpa's axe.  It was probably never red originally but the ali was.  Change to what you like - no value issues from that unless you went a pink polka dot or something equally repulsive.  

 

Taking it back to original frame is a good thing.  I guarantee there will be hidden corrosion which you will only find by stripping it back.  Powder coating afterwards seems a good approach to protecting a restored chassis.  

 

Resources - start here:

 

Good luck.  

 

[theDreamer]

From what you describe I’d say you have found a real Lotus 7 Series 2. The U1148 number indicates the chassis was made by Universal Radiators. Question, is this stamped on a cross bar near or on a small plate welded to a crossbar? The body work would have originally been done by Alert Motor Works.

The component plate was scratched or etched because they could not stamp it once it was riveted to the alloy.

Check out this site as Croc mentioned and John Watson’s.

https://www.anglocanadianlotus7.ca/lotus-seven-frame-and-chassis-numbers/

[S1Steve]

Congratulations and Welcome…. I agree with Croc, post up some pictures. There are a few guys on this forum that have the knowledge and experience to determine exactly what your trying to purchase…. We are happy to pick it apart for you.😆😆

Edited Thursday at 10:20 PM by S1Steve

[randomDMZ]

Here is a picture of the component plate. It's the only one I have at current

[randomDMZ]

Pic 2

[randomDMZ]

Here's the picture of the frame tag

[randomDMZ]

It's going to be a lot of elbow grease. The head is currently at a machine shop getting refreshed. Engine cylinders look good from what the seller says. It wasn't really for sale when I found it. Family friend kind of deal.

[Slonie]

I know it's liable to draw a lot of comments from the purists, but I kinda love that bumper/light bar. Never seen one like it before.

As you're a dune buggy owner I'm sure you feel right at home with it? 

[theDreamer]

Oh wow… where to begin. So much says Lotus but then there is much that seems modified.

As I stated before the contractor’s chassis number is in keeping with Universal Radiator. This is good to know as if you are successful in obtaining this car you will likely need to do frame repairs. Universal used fusion welding were as Arch Motors brazed all their frames.

What we now refer to as the VIN plate has hand scratched characters as you indicated. However, these are really poorly done. Also, it looks like someone at some point has used steel wool or sand paper to try and make them legible. However, they may have removed some of the actual characters. You can try the old, place a piece of tracing paper over the area and do a pencil rubbing to see if you can make out the characters better.

I copied the photo and using a very old photo program tried to alter the brightness and contrast to see if it would help.

The best I could do is the Lotus factory chassis number maybe SB 1 (2or7) space 5 or SB 11 (2 or 7) but it’s hard to tell. I’m not sure that first line is a character. It should have two letters and four digits.

The Engine Number seems clearer and appears to be AEA 17 RS 1458 (possibly with a 1 at the very end)

More investigation is needed. The head is off but what is the engine? Can you get photos of the block numbers? Photos of the interior, dash and from under the car showing transmission, rear axle and suspension wold be great as well.

I’m curious about the multiple bumps on the bonnet. So many questions.

[randomDMZ]

2 hours ago, Slonie said:

I know it's liable to draw a lot of comments from the purists, but I kinda love that bumper/light bar. Never seen one like it before.

As you're a dune buggy owner I'm sure you feel right at home with it? 

I had no idea this was or was not a thing?

[randomDMZ]

20 minutes ago, theDreamer said:

Oh wow… where to begin. So much says Lotus but then there is much that seems modified.

 

As I stated before the contractor’s chassis number is in keeping with Universal Radiator. This is good to know as if you are successful in obtaining this car you will likely need to do frame repairs. Universal used fusion welding were as Arch Motors brazed all their frames.

 

What we now refer to as the VIN plate has hand scratched characters as you indicated. However, these are really poorly done. Also, it looks like someone at some point has used steel wool or sand paper to try and make them legible. However, they may have removed some of the actual characters. You can try the old, place a piece of tracing paper over the area and do a pencil rubbing to see if you can make out the characters better.

 

I copied the photo and using a very old photo program tried to alter the brightness and contrast to see if it would help.

 

The best I could do is the Lotus factory chassis number maybe SB 1 (2or7) space 5 or SB 11 (2 or 7) but it’s hard to tell. I’m not sure that first line is a character. It should have two letters and four digits.

 

The Engine Number seems clearer and appears to be AEA 17 RS 1458 (possibly with a 1 at the very end)

 

More investigation is needed. The head is off but what is the engine? Can you get photos of the block numbers? Photos of the interior, dash and from under the car showing transmission, rear axle and suspension wold be great as well.

 

I’m curious about the multiple bumps on the bonnet. So many questions.

 

I will get a bunch more pictures next week when I actually physically go look at the car. The car technically is not for sale, the only reason the owner is thinking about partying with it is because I'm a friend of the family. I'm just trying to get all my ducks in a row before I spend a bunch of money that I'll regret.

[Christopher smith]

Just a couple of thoughts on restoration metallurgy. If the frame needs repairs, make sure you determine if it was welded originally or brazed. If brazed, you can not weld repairs since the brazing alloy actually penetrates the steel tube surface near the joint enough to make welding fail. If brazed, stick to braze repairs. Also, for the cylinder head, make sure that hardened valve seats are installed. Non-hardened valve seats mean unleaded fuel will make them fail. The lead or lead substitute prevented sticking, acting as a very high temperature lubricant in treating the surface. This info originally came from a mechanical engineer with a masters in material science so I think it is correct.

[7Westfield]

Also remember that tha brazing on these was probably not done as we consider brazing over here

It was done with an uncoated rod and a fluxor unit that puts the flux into the gas line

The coated rods don't give the strength or nice appearance of that process

 

Edited Friday at 12:24 PM by 7Westfield

[SENC]

If "provenance" is a part of your decision-making on how much to invest, the best thing you can do is send as much detailed information on numbers and owner history + whatever pictures you have to John Watson - if anyone can identify the vehicle, it is likely he.

 

As Croc suggested, there is not a lot of value in these cars, even when good provenance can be established - ie., if you could rebuild its entire history while renovating the vehicle itself, and did both completely and spotlessly, it still won't be worth a whole lot (mid-5 figures).

 

I need to go back to my resources to confirm, but in the back of my mind I think the "U" may indicate a replacement frame - the Universal Radiator-made frames built into Lotus 7s had numbers with "B" and were located near the clutch/brake cylinder mount.

 

An vehicle plate with SB# starting in 11 would suggest a vehicle earlier than 1965 (my 65, for example, is SB2042).  Maybe if that is really 17xx it could get into 65.  The plate in my vehicle was stamped, but I've seen a number that were scratched - so that doesn't mean a lot.

 

If I had to guess based on your opening description and the few pictures, like Croc I'd speculate you have a bitsa car - one built-up out of many parts of different Sevens.  That may not be the case, just a guess.  And that wouldn't make it any less fun to acquire, rebuild, and enjoy.

 

As for color - do whatever you want.  Regardless of what you can eatablish about the history of car, it has clearly been significantly modified over the years - the rear fenders and the bonnet, for example, are absolutely not S2.

Edited Friday at 12:57 PM by SENC

[theDreamer]

Sorry if I’m stepping on toes here but…

The welded plate on the cross brace in front of the seat pad that has the chassis number stamped on it with a “U” was used by Universal Radiator. If you read the info in the links Croc and I provided you’d have seen that.

This from https://www.anglocanadianlotus7.ca/lotus-seven-frame-and-chassis-numbers/

“I found six Lotus Sevens in their records that were either on sale, or had been sold on the ‘Bring A Trailer’ (BAT) web site, and noticed that some of the cars in the records had a different letter identifying the frame build number. In a few cases the frame identification for Universal Radiators frames started with a ‘U’, not a ‘B’, as I had originally noted on this site.”

Also, Universal Radiator NEVER brazed their chassis. That too is in the aforementioned links.

As far as Mr. John Watson is concerned be forewarned; to say he is a character is a huge understatement. He is probably one of the best, most knowledgeable people when it comes to original Lotus 7’s. However, he can be very prickly, even down right rude. He doesn’t like to deal with non-owners. He believes his free service is taken advantage of by many. Once you own a car he will help but most of his correspondence is to be kept secret. He is very aware of how easily Lotus 7’s can be duplicated or cloned so he never publishes actual chassis numbers.

As with anything, the price you offer is what you feel the item is worth to you. The dollar amount the seller puts on an item is how much it means to them. Often times that includes sentimental value that is important only to the seller. This should not factor into an items actual market price but you must be aware and respect this fact.

The other factor to consider is that the journey is often more rewarding than merely owning the finished product. If you enjoy a good mystery, if you like working with your hands and enjoy the pride and satisfaction that restoring a car like this brings, (even if it turns out to be a clone or bittsa) then go for it. At the very least help you family friend to understand what their car truly is.

Good luck on your journey.

[panamericano]

Regarding the scratchy plate.  Once you own it and have it on a trailer, you may want to try police.  If your locale has a well funded police, or state trooper office in reach, they may have a stolen vehicle section.  Those guys have equipment that can read numbers that are absolutely invisible to the eye.  

[joe7]

Just gotta ask! What are the 2 "domes" on the bonnet in front of the windscreen for and the 2 above the carb scoop?

[randomDMZ]

5 hours ago, Christopher smith said:

Just a couple of thoughts on restoration metallurgy. If the frame needs repairs, make sure you determine if it was welded originally or brazed. If brazed, you can not weld repairs since the brazing alloy actually penetrates the steel tube surface near the joint enough to make welding fail. If brazed, stick to braze repairs. Also, for the cylinder head, make sure that hardened valve seats are installed. Non-hardened valve seats mean unleaded fuel will make them fail. The lead or lead substitute prevented sticking, acting as a very high temperature lubricant in treating the surface. This info originally came from a mechanical engineer with a masters in material science so I think it is correct.

That's weird? That's exactly the same person that's selling me the car. A mechanical engineer with a masters in material sciences... Not joking. Weird world. His brother is the one rebuilding the head so I'm assuming it's being taken care of correctly. But I'll ask. Thank you for the advice.

[randomDMZ]

2 hours ago, joe7 said:

Just gotta ask! What are the 2 "domes" on the bonnet in front of the windscreen for and the 2 above the carb scoop?

No idea